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Naglfar: hints and first hand experiences
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2012-03-06 22:53:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Hi,

after cross skilling allmost all subcapital T1 and T2 stuff I start to look at capital ships. I'm not a huge fan of big fleet combat so I have doubts if capital ships are that useful for me at all. But I think (assume) a clever applied dread can be a huge force multiplier even for a small gang.

Since we do small scale PvP I think we need some kind of flexibility. With flexibility I mean the ability to deal with unexpected/variable situations. We just don't have the manpower to field multiple specialists to cover said variable situations. I'm not sure if this makes any sense for dreads (beeing more one-trick-pony than flexible) but I think there are differences:

Phoenix: perfect for shooting structures, super caps and immobile (tiraged/sieged) capitals. With dedicated support maybe able to deal with subcapitals. It's cap independent and able to do damage at all - even in unfavorable situations. The ability to deal different damage types (though with less damage) helps too.

Moros: I think after it's change the best dread to deal with subcapitals - especially when fitted as super shield Brutix. But when facing other capitals I think the Moros is too vulnerable. I guess a lot of carriers are fitted with heavy neuts, same for battleships. This will ruin the Moros' awesome damage output for sure. When fitted with some tank it's damage output looks more equalised to the other dreads again.

Revelation: like the Moros but even more vulnerable to neuting. Also worst tracking short range turrets, so less useful against subcapitals without dedicated support.

Naglfar: maybe the best mix of both extremes? Cap independent + true variable damage types + second best tracking turrets + reliability of missiles + good tank/gank ratio as shield tank. Plus the Nag is vertical. This all sounds interesting. But I've no clue how it works in real combat.

In short: do you think the Nag can do it's job as capital basher (ofc it should) while beeing able to rampage a sudden battleship fleet at the same time? The latter with minimal support, lets say 1-2 long range webs/TPs.

Fake edit: I don't mind the additional skilling time for the Nag.

Many thanks for any hint.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#2 - 2012-03-07 09:14:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
If your looking to be a Force Multiplier for a gang you might consider a carrier instead.

Archons are generally preffered for armour due to there resist bonus, and triage carriers or even well implemented non-triage carriers can turn a losing battle when used carefully, however expect the counter drop, and expect to lose it.

EDIT: Shooting subcaps with Dreads is completely Sub-Optimal, and the Nags split weapon system with missile makes it second worse for the role, first being the Pheonix, they are both excellent dreadnaughts for nyncing due to there capless weapon system and generally give a good damage output within there role, but are sub-optimal as I say.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#3 - 2012-03-07 09:22:03 UTC
Torps do next to nothing against sub caps, so you write off half your DPS from a nag.

Moros is great, a few TCs, Sebos, Trimarks and a T2 damage rig.

Although the revelation has lower tracking it can me used at much greater ranges, it will still deal about 90% of its maximum dps at 50km, at this point tracking is far less important.

The capacitor bonus on a revelation means its guns use only a little more cap than a moros and the revelation has a better base capacitor.

Bring some 90% webs and moros up close / revs at range will melt sub caps with ease, notso much the case with the other two dreads.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#4 - 2012-03-07 09:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
I'm curious as to what size gang is "small" and where your will be operating by the by??

Moar Edit - A decent sized BS gang will ROFLSTOMP a poorly supported dread, even a frig gang can take down a dread with relative ease.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2012-03-07 16:07:05 UTC
dreadnoughts are not force multipliers. They bring a large amount of dps to structures and other capitals. If you have a couple dreads among subcaps, the dreads cannot provide support to the subcaps, protect them, or enable them to function better in any way. The dread is a liability, and the subcaps role is to protect it so it can do dps.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#6 - 2012-03-07 19:36:43 UTC
You are much, much better off with a Triage carrier and fitting subcaps for more gank if you're planning on dropping caps for general support. Dreads have a role with proper painting/webbing support and for munching on enemy triage but it doesn't sound like your gangs are set up for specialties like that.

TLDR; You need a capital force multiplier and flexibility? Get a carrier, not a dread.
Denuo Secus
#7 - 2012-03-07 19:43:12 UTC
Thanks for your replies.

We are 10 people maximum, sometimes less. Ofc the main idea was to handle the occasional hostile capital ship. But while doing this we want to be able to deal with supporting hostile subcaps at the same time using this dread or two dreads at most (with light support like tackle and/or ewar).

Another idea was to mob battleship camps with a sniper dread from distance. The Nag's huge volley damage seemed very helpful here. With reduced siege duration I thought we could do some kind of "hit&run" - appear, deal a lot of damage in very short time and disappear. A dread from distance would combine the damage of several battleships in one ship.

But I guess I should reconsider all this and think more in terms of a strong sub cap gang + carrier support.
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-03-07 20:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: george harries
Ok - I'm no capital pilot but in a small alliance, we have cap pilots with carriers and dreads. A dread is really not a hit and run - try that on a gate and you'll have frigs etc coming to warp scram you FAST.....and the oposition will be rapidly looking to get anyone they can to get in on a cap kill. But as others have said a dread is not great vs BS size targets.

Carriers I have seen used to great effect whether supporting the fleet and/or applying DPS through fighters assigned to the fleet...I mean the carrier can sit safetly elsewhere as well (I think!!)

Listen to what others are saying - I really think a cap in a 10 people 'gang' is really really silly and you will lose it VERY quickly - any half decent gate camp will slap your 9 corpies silly whilst locking the dread down and laughing at the KM they will have.


just my 10 isk


Why not train a CS or a faction/Pirate BS and pimp it out - you at least have a chance to GTFO whereas your dread is gonna be dead.
Katalci
Kismesis
#9 - 2012-03-07 23:32:38 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:

Another idea was to mob battleship camps with a sniper dread from distance. The Nag's huge volley damage seemed very helpful here. With reduced siege duration I thought we could do some kind of "hit&run" - appear, deal a lot of damage in very short time and disappear. A dread from distance would combine the damage of several battleships in one ship.

This is a good idea. Try it some place like Tama or Amamake; they'll never know what hit them!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2012-03-08 22:01:46 UTC
Your idea of 'hit and run' is to siege a dread while on grid with a bunch of hostile battleships.

Look up the definition of 'hit and run'
Look up the definition of 'very short time'
Look up the stats on a siege modules
Look up the definition of 'mob'
In your group of 10 people, look up who the brains of the outfit is, and slap them, because every idea you've posted so far is jaw-droppingly terrible.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Denuo Secus
#11 - 2012-03-08 23:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Batelle wrote:
Your idea of 'hit and run' is to siege a dread while on grid with a bunch of hostile battleships.

Look up the definition of 'hit and run'
Look up the definition of 'very short time'
Look up the stats on a siege modules
Look up the definition of 'mob'
In your group of 10 people, look up who the brains of the outfit is, and slap them, because every idea you've posted so far is jaw-droppingly terrible.


That's why I put hit&run into apostrophes. I know a dread cannot skirmish. It was just meant as appear, do damage of several ships with only one ship (small gang - very few pilots), and disappear 5mins later.

Also:

Denuo Secus wrote:
But I guess I should reconsider all this and think more in terms of a strong sub cap gang + carrier support.
Liam Mirren
#12 - 2012-03-09 13:25:02 UTC
As others have stated, a dread isn't really useful for the situations you describe (10 man gangs) and you'd be much better off with a logistics carrier also because it doesn't have to triage/siege to be effective. A non-sieged dread is useless so using a dread means you're stuck which being a 10 man gang generally isn't a good strategy.

If you want better anti-capital/RR get a bhaalgorn, add an Archon to it if you want to play with the big boys.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
#13 - 2012-03-10 03:14:53 UTC
I really wouldn;t do it. Dreads are for long large battles or for POS bashing. for a 10 man gang bring a bhaal or some stupidly high dps ship like a vindi if you have trouble with big stuff.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#14 - 2012-03-10 07:02:39 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
It was just meant as appear, do damage of several ships with only one ship (small gang - very few pilots), and disappear 5mins later.

5 minutes is an eternity. Just about any group of battleships camping a gate will get a warp in to you in one minute, which is about how long it will take your sieged dread to target one of them.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Skywalker
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2012-03-11 23:14:21 UTC
Zarian Uphius
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#16 - 2012-03-12 01:57:27 UTC
1. You don't use dreads t fight subcaps...ever

2. If you are flying anything other than a rev or a moros...reprocess it, then use w/e isk you already have and got to buy a decent dread.
Denuo Secus
#17 - 2012-03-12 04:46:56 UTC
Zarian Uphius wrote:
1. You don't use dreads t fight subcaps...ever

2. If you are flying anything other than a rev or a moros...reprocess it, then use w/e isk you already have and got to buy a decent dread.


Please explain. Both points you made seem to exclude each other.

1. Ok, in this thread I learned fighting subcaps in a dread is silly.

2. I guess you refer to missile dreads here. But if I fight capital ships only...then why are missile dreads bad? I just dont get it. XL missiles do full damage to:

- super capitals, moving or not
- capitals when triaged or sieged
- structures

So what's left? Non triaged carriers, only. Afaik it needs 2 webs and 1 TP to do full missile damage on a moving Nid, as an example. Now since dreads are no solo boats...isn't it worth to bring those webs/TP in exchange for damage type selection (more or less for the Phoenix) and cap-less weapons? I hear beeing able to jump after siege is quite important.

Serious question, I want to understand why missile dreads are considered as that bad.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-03-12 14:38:06 UTC
Quote:
Serious question, I want to understand why missile dreads are considered as that bad.

The main reason for their bad reputation is their performance in larger scale battles, IIRC. Missile dreads tend to fall behind turret dreads thanks to excessive flight time.