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Implants - CCP's anti-PvP feature?
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YuuKnow
The Scope
#61 - 2012-03-05 03:36:03 UTC
Luba Cibre wrote:
Alot people say, it's risk vs. reward to pvp with +5s, but actually it isn't.
You have _NO_ risk and get _ALL_ the reward, if you sit in station with +5.


Much Truth.

Maybe implants in general should be removed from high sec agents...Shocked. That would bring more folks into low sec and null sec I bet.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#62 - 2012-03-05 03:43:24 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
I don't know. Its certainly an interesting idea, but linking skill training to LP will make missioners the kings of EVE... there's already not enough incentive to get people to war as it is. Boost the power of LP and it seems counterproductive to what the devs are trying to create in motivating more PvP rewards (not PvE).

Well you could introduce them however you wanted, I suggested LP because it is how attribute enhancers are currently brought into the game. Realistically it could be brought in in any method, be it NPC drops, LPs, manufacturing or a combination of all three.

The only aspect I was really interested in is maintaining on ongoing ISK sink, whilst not specifically punishing those engaging in null sec PvP.

YuuKnow wrote:
... I think it would be interesting if Attribute boosters (lets just call them SP DrugsP) were supplied from null sec areas only (be it missions from Moons or Pirate Corps or even better from Null Sec PI under the control of Dust fighters. With each attribute drug from a different section of the map. That would motivate more resource motivated conflicts in Null Sec and would create a Null Sec to High Sec supply chain to the economy.

Realistically these days a "null sec to high sec supply chain" would merely entail players using a cyno alt to jump stuff one jump out from high sec. Then running everything to Jita with a neutral alt, as such I don't really see it as being important where things are produced as long as the financial rewards for producing them doesn't completely screw risk/reward.

YuuKnow wrote:
... how it would all work out in the end should be studied long and hard however to see if it would really work, but I think your on to something... needs some full time game-thinkers to think it the whole way through.

yk.

Aye, twud definitely require a fair bit of work. Especially if it was to be introduced without making even more of a complicated mess out of the naming schemes etc. lol.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
YuuKnow
The Scope
#63 - 2012-03-05 03:52:36 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Realistically these days a "null sec to high sec supply chain" would merely entail players using a cyno alt to jump stuff one jump out from high sec. Then running everything to Jita with a neutral alt, as such I don't really see it as being important where things are produced as long as the financial rewards for producing them doesn't completely screw risk/reward.


Was referring to an economic supply chain more than a physical supply chain. Not really any importance to how its transported, but that it a null sec resource with high demand in high sec. Personally I think that tieing high sec equipment to null sec resources is one of the more elegant parts of the game economy IMHO.

Wonder if the devs are reading any of these ideas?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#64 - 2012-03-05 03:59:20 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Was referring to an economic supply chain more than a physical supply chain. Not really any importance to how its transported, but that it a null sec resource with high demand in high sec. Personally I think that tieing high sec equipment to null sec resources is one of the more elegant parts of the game economy IMHO.

Ahh, yes, sorry I started off in Eve as a prolific gate camping pirate. Now whenever someone says supply chain I instantly think "freighters full of shiny stuff".

YuuKnow wrote:
Wonder if the devs are reading any of these ideas?

I think they read some of them, I've seen a few ideas that have come up on here end up in the patch notes at least. Most of them are stuff people have been expecting/asking for for years though.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-03-05 04:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Simi Kusoni0 wrote:
Quite simply there's no reason that rate of learning should be linked to empire space, it adds nothing to the game.
And no, it doesn't effect us older players since a few days/weeks here and there on our SP plans doesn't make a lot of difference to us. It does effect new players though, especially since they're the ones who are far more likely than us to lose pods too.


Then its a good thing its not linked to any particular space. It's linked to isk in wallet, risk aversion and individual determination.

It is linked to empire, have you ever undocked in Eve? Why are you even discussing this? Are we playing the same game?

Oh Christ I just looked up your combat record, nvm. I lol'd.

Caliph Muhammed wrote:
And for attempting to use "the newbs" like people use "the kids", you sir, are worse than Hatler.

Some things effect new players more than old players, deal with it.


http://wat.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_ext_id=91190298 The enemy has a 100% survival rate against you.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=704551&m=3&y=2012 The enemy has a 0% survival rate against me.

I lol'd.

If that's not your main then why post under an alt? Second, combat stats have nothing to do with the topic. And third if that is your main, while the corp might be efficient, you are in no way affiliated with its decent efficiency.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#66 - 2012-03-05 05:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Simi Kusoni0 wrote:
Quite simply there's no reason that rate of learning should be linked to empire space, it adds nothing to the game.
And no, it doesn't effect us older players since a few days/weeks here and there on our SP plans doesn't make a lot of difference to us. It does effect new players though, especially since they're the ones who are far more likely than us to lose pods too.


Then its a good thing its not linked to any particular space. It's linked to isk in wallet, risk aversion and individual determination.

It is linked to empire, have you ever undocked in Eve? Why are you even discussing this? Are we playing the same game?

Oh Christ I just looked up your combat record, nvm. I lol'd.

Caliph Muhammed wrote:
And for attempting to use "the newbs" like people use "the kids", you sir, are worse than Hatler.

Some things effect new players more than old players, deal with it.


http://wat.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_ext_id=91190298 The enemy has a 100% survival rate against you.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=704551&m=3&y=2012 The enemy has a 0% survival rate against me.

I lol'd.

If that's not your main then why post under an alt? Second, combat stats have nothing to do with the topic. And third if that is your main, while the corp might be efficient, you are in no way affiliated with its decent efficiency.

View my bio, I link a few of my pvp toons through there. Diaz and shaidar. And of course this is an alt.

Also, look yourself up on battle clinic, people have posted some of your losses. Four neuts on a drake, lol and you forgot the tank? Anyway, back to the actual discussion...

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-03-05 05:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
4 medium neuts on a drake meant to neut is much fun. Unfortunately that day we couldnt find a fight so we sat at a gate until someone attacked us. And eventually someone did, a fleet of 12-20. So dont talk shet like you're impressing anyone. It was three of us there bored looking to gank. We gave up and decided we werent taking the ships back intact.

That 4 neut drake can kill a rattlesnake pve fit shield tank by itself very quickly. So can your meme'esque must use a cookie cutter shitfit rhetoric.

Most recon ships have 4 launchers. The drake has 4 launchers and 4 neuts which is a perfectly workable setup. And when you can kill the offense and defense of any ship put in front of you by leaving them with a dead cap your dps is somewhat irrelevant.

Post on your combat main so we know you aren't just claiming to be someone else. Because for the life of me I cant possibly understand why you would post under that shet character if you had better.

Actually dont bother, it doesn't matter to begin with. The point is +5s are a perk not an entitlement. Same with faster training in general. You do not deserve a break because you percieve yourself in a special class of a.d.d. wielding die everyday "pvpers".
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#68 - 2012-03-05 05:55:29 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
4 medium neuts on a drake meant to neut is much fun. Unfortunately that day we couldnt find a fight so we sat at a gate until someone attacked us. And eventually someone did, a fleet of 12-20. So dont talk shet like you're impressing anyone. It was three of us there bored looking to gank. We gave up and decided we werent taking the ships back intact.

That 4 neut drake can kill a rattlesnake pve fit shield tank by itself very quickly. So can your memesque must use a cookie cutter shitfit rhetoric.

Most recon ships have 4 launchers. The drake has 4 launchers and 4 neuts which is a perfectly workable setup. And when you can kill the offense and defense of any ship put in front of you by leaving them with a dead cap your dps is somewhat irrelevant.

Post on your combat main so we know you aren't just claiming to be someone else. Because for the life of me I cant possibly understand why you would post under that shet character if you had better.

Cool story bro, I especially like the part where you forgot to put any tank on your drake.

Anyway, my combat alt is linked in my bio. Another of my combat alts is linked in my combat alts bio. And I am linked in my combat alts alts bio... Seriously, its a little circle of name linking and we're all in the same corp. You seriously going to make me relog just to prove a point?

Low bro, low.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-03-05 06:13:13 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
4 medium neuts on a drake meant to neut is much fun. Unfortunately that day we couldnt find a fight so we sat at a gate until someone attacked us. And eventually someone did, a fleet of 12-20. So dont talk shet like you're impressing anyone. It was three of us there bored looking to gank. We gave up and decided we werent taking the ships back intact.

That 4 neut drake can kill a rattlesnake pve fit shield tank by itself very quickly. So can your memesque must use a cookie cutter shitfit rhetoric.

Most recon ships have 4 launchers. The drake has 4 launchers and 4 neuts which is a perfectly workable setup. And when you can kill the offense and defense of any ship put in front of you by leaving them with a dead cap your dps is somewhat irrelevant.

Post on your combat main so we know you aren't just claiming to be someone else. Because for the life of me I cant possibly understand why you would post under that shet character if you had better.

Cool story bro, I especially like the part where you forgot to put any tank on your drake.

Anyway, my combat alt is linked in my bio. Another of my combat alts is linked in my combat alts bio. And I am linked in my combat alts alts bio... Seriously, its a little circle of name linking and we're all in the same corp. You seriously going to make me relog just to prove a point?
.
Low bro, low.


Why do I need tank on a drake if i'm not going to be tanking? I told you we were ganking. Meaning we wanted a single target to hit and all i had to do was neut him.

Second of all my shield ewar and capacitor skills are elite certed. So what you percieve as no tank is plenty to me. Only baddies who find themselves in situations they werent expecting require the 77k ehp (in game) drake. My drake under no circumstances has over 55k ehp. I dont need it, id rather have two webs or a painter or any number of things more than more shield.

And if you did actually check the killmail look at the number of people that killed the drake and tell me what you think two shield extenders were going to do?

Besides my poverty stricken friend I use tengus, drakes are for the poor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMwpKIgFbCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2uEuK2Tb0g

Two fun kills and im using the tengu. More videos to come. More I can give.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#70 - 2012-03-05 06:27:21 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

hy do I need tank on a drake if i'm not going to be tanking? I told you we were ganking. Meaning we wanted a single target to hit and all i had to do was neut him.

Second of all my shield ewar and capacitor skills are elite certed. So what you percieve as no tank is plenty to me. Only baddies who find themselves in situations they werent expecting require the 77k ehp (in game) drake. My drake under no circumstances has over 55k ehp. I dont need it, id rather have two webs or a painter or any number of things more than more shield.

And if you did actually check the killmail look at the number of people that killed the drake and tell me what you think two shield extenders were going to do?

Besides my poverty stricken friend I use tengus, drakes are for the poor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMwpKIgFbCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2uEuK2Tb0g

Two fun kills and im using the tengu. More videos to come. More I can give.


Look dude, I really can't be bothered to watch some terrible videos of a high sec "pvp" toon flying a T3, not quite sure why you're calling me poverty stricken either? Maybe you looked up the wrong toon lol, but either way get back on topic or STFU and GTFO of this thread.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-03-05 06:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

hy do I need tank on a drake if i'm not going to be tanking? I told you we were ganking. Meaning we wanted a single target to hit and all i had to do was neut him.

Second of all my shield ewar and capacitor skills are elite certed. So what you percieve as no tank is plenty to me. Only baddies who find themselves in situations they werent expecting require the 77k ehp (in game) drake. My drake under no circumstances has over 55k ehp. I dont need it, id rather have two webs or a painter or any number of things more than more shield.

And if you did actually check the killmail look at the number of people that killed the drake and tell me what you think two shield extenders were going to do?

Besides my poverty stricken friend I use tengus, drakes are for the poor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMwpKIgFbCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2uEuK2Tb0g

Two fun kills and im using the tengu. More videos to come. More I can give.


Look dude, I really can't be bothered to watch some terrible videos of a high sec "pvp" toon flying a T3, not quite sure why you're calling me poverty stricken either? Maybe you looked up the wrong toon lol, but either way get back on topic or STFU and GTFO of this thread.



Because you are in a thread crying over not being able to afford to train as fast as hisecers when you die with +5s. From the looks of it you can't be bothered with anything but talking **** about what your other toons do. Still waiting on some confimation of your pvp toon. It wont change the fact training and implants are fine but ill have a inch more respect for you after you pulled the kb argument out.

My intuition tells me you joined a pvp corp with a decent record and looked for the first opportunity to throw the KB argument out there hoping someone would affiliate you with that corp and give you props. By all means prove me wrong but I think you're an actor.

And I won't be gtfo or stfu ever.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#72 - 2012-03-05 06:46:01 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
My intuition tells me you joined a pvp corp with a decent record and looked for the first opportunity to throw the KB argument out there hoping someone would affiliate you with that corp and give you props. By all means prove me wrong but I think you're an actor.

And I won't be gtfo or stfu ever.

Your intuition was wrong. Christ I can't believe you made me log on a different character, such a douche. If someone links a toon in their bio, and it's in the same corp, and that toon links back to them, it's probably theirs.

Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Because you are in a thread crying over not being able to afford to train as fast as hisecers when you die with +5s. From the looks of it you can't be bothered with anything but talking **** about what your other toons do. Still waiting on some confimation of your pvp toon. It wont change the fact training and implants are fine but ill have a inch more respect for you after you pulled the kb argument out.

No, I'm in a thread talking about how it acts as a barrier for entry to PvP for newer players, who need (or think they need) SP more desperately and also cannot afford to throw away implants.

View my contract history, or Simi's, or any of my other alts, and see how space poor I am. I can throw away all the ISK all I want, and I'm at the stage now where I have 5 high SP accounts (3 have >60m SP) so training speed is hardly important to me.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-03-05 06:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
It doesn't act as a barrier for new players it acts as a barrier to poor players. Veteran and new. If they can't afford the premium training speed and the risk that comes from dying with that premium rate thats their own personal issue. I like the fact I can pvp and lose the 5s while others can't. Its the beauty of a free market sandbox system. There is no inherent right to equality in this game. Only the same rules applied to all. And the rules are there for everyone. Install 5s or don't. Die or don't. Its perfectly balanced.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#74 - 2012-03-05 07:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
It doesn't act as a barrier for new players it acts as a barrier to poor players. Veteran and new. New players may feel they need more skill points but the game doesn't care two ***** eitherway. The plus 5s cost X they offer Y what you do in game and whether what you do enables you the finances to pvp and lose the 5s is irrelevant.

Finally, on topic, tyvm Blink

Anyway, the point isn't that it effects rich over poor. Moving attribute enhancements to temporary boosters would still discriminate against the space poor. That's fine, that's pretty much Eve's central guiding ethos right there.

The issue is that it very strongly discourages poor or young players from PvPing, and especially from venturing into null sec. As they want to learn at the fastest rate possible, and they cannot at that stage afford to replace the implants. This doesn't add anything to the game except an ISK sink, it simply discourages PvP and penalizes PvP pilots.

It also almost certainly adds in my opinion to the culture of many people joining the game, never leaving high sec and then becoming positively terrified of any kind of risk. If the ISK sink aspect of implants could be kept, I think CCP should seriously consider altering them.

Although I admit the ISK sink is important, it is the only aspect of the implants to have merit.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Sajun Benza
Lost in the Wasteland
#75 - 2012-04-08 21:28:16 UTC
Hi, I'm a new player, just got poded in w-space on my main + alt, lost 40 mil, now instead of going back to exploring and stuff, im just gonna go do missions in high sec to get my +3's again.

I really dont mind losing ships + gear at all, I actually enjoy it since it makes everything more worthwile, but losing REAL TIME just makes me want to log 2 minutes a day to train skills.

"pvp'ers have fun" is nice and all, but skill advance is the core progression and it shouldnt suffer the most, it should be the other way around.

I couldnt wait to finish science skills on my alt so I can try invention, got no idea what it is, but I just think its cool, now I'm set back, this just makes me want to stop playing.

Not whining, just sharing. Thx
Kjel Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-04-09 13:01:08 UTC
I think this topic was brought up a few months ago by a/some of, the Goons.

The whole learning implant thing does seem a bit poo tbh. I agree with other posters in that it is not about isk at all. Just jumping into a pvp clone with lg's instead of usual learning implants, increases my learning time on my current 4 days skill by another 10 hours... While i want to go and pvp, the idea of losing wasted hours of training time by doing so outweighs that want. If the learning attrubutes were not a factor, regardless of cost, i'd fly around all day, every day with Lg in my head.

i don't see why it would be such a big deal to get rid of learning implants entirely and give +5 base to all new and exsisting characters. no one loses out and everyone wins.

Also reducing JC activation time via a skill (-4 hrs) per level for example, would also encourage people to jump around into cheaper hardwires and pvp more.

Again, this is by no means an "ISK" related topic. purely the impact that the thought of 24 hours of reduced training time, has upon players wanting to participate in PVP.
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#77 - 2012-04-09 13:24:55 UTC
It is hard to think of a way that saving implants after pod kill would work. Implants are electronic devices and thus can not be cloned.

If CCP chose to they could introduce organic versions of implants, that would cost a lot more and require a different, more advanced skill. These being organic and genetically connected to you, would then be part of the cloning process.

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-04-09 13:38:59 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
d) Use implants you can afford to lose



Just pvp with a clone having 0 implants and not more SP than is required to fly some ships.

T2 frigs in 2 races, Interdictors in 2 races, T2 cruisers like heavy assault and heavy dictors (leave paladin in space for those loving it), BC and BS at 4 in those 2 races and you have access to 1-2 pirate ships and the most used ships in eve for pvp.

Less that 35M SP, no need to go further. Very interesting game, or not.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-04-09 13:42:48 UTC
Bluddwolf wrote:
It is hard to think of a way that saving implants after pod kill would work. Implants are electronic devices and thus can not be cloned.

If CCP chose to they could introduce organic versions of implants, that would cost a lot more and require a different, more advanced skill. These being organic and genetically connected to you, would then be part of the cloning process.


Actually this is what I'd like to, because actually I really think a guy has to be really stupid to put 2B+ in implants to play with a ship he WILL undoubtedly loose.
No interest on doing so, I actually just let old bitter vets do it and if I loose my ship faster or it has less performances than it should/could have I don't give a crap about it, 2B implants represents a lot of T2 frigates and destroyers I can fly.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#80 - 2012-04-09 14:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
The implant system has always been one of the shittiest mechanics in EVE. In addition to the problems given in the OP, it also creates a giant cost/benefit problem with hardwirings. Hardwirings are vastly better for cost in lowsec and hisec (e.g. places without bubbles) than nullsec. Additionally, someone who spends all their time in hisec can easily get away with +5s, whereas someone who spends time in nullsec will, depending on how much they PvP, be unable to afford anything more than +2s-+3s in most cases.

I'd like to see a total overhaul that

a) removed attribute implants entirely
b) Made hardwirings a bit better. Perhaps 3/6/9%?
c) Make pods easier to catch (give them a small align time? Create a 1-2s buffer after ship destruction before warpout?

b) and c) make implants desirable (maybe even standard) for PvP, but also make them risky to use outside of nullsec.

Additionally, so as not to screw over veterans who like to fly cheap, clone cost should be reduced (heavily flatten the curve, or maybe create a low static cost)