EVE General Discussion

Hauling stuff in is cheaper than building it locally, because mining and industry in 0.0 are fundamentally broken. The way to fix it is to fix mining and industry, not to break hauling too.

Then boarder systems would probably be under large alliances strict control so regular freighters could bring stuff to the 1st station, then be "jumped" by carriers/rorquals. (cheaper than jump freighters)

Wich is already done by now.

As somebody who has both mined in 0.0 and used jump freighters in 0.0.
I will tell you that removing JF's is not going to help draw more industrials, miners into null sec.
In fact it will hurt industrials.

There are a lot of issues why people do and don't mine in 0.0 .
There is no game mechanic that will open up the flood gates for care bears to null sec.

When I see posts like this I have to wonder if there is an ulterior motive to removing Jump Freighters as no industrial would ever ask for there removal.

Hulks can.
Align to.
No point.
No, needs to be better than the Hulks. 0.0 is dangerous to mine. Want it done fast so you can gtfo.

All reasonable ideas but the ship is not the problem.

Ok, here's how industry and mining work between high sec and nullsec. We mine high grades and export to highsec to sell in order to buy lowgrades that we compress and import. At least that's how it used to work until the Russians started botting the drones, now they export obscene amounts of highgrades, making the risk/reward ratio for the average nullsec miner completely worthless. Just so you know if the Russians weren't providing so much of the high end minerals the cost of a unit of mega would probably be somewhere around 5k isk per unit instead of 2. As a ship builder, thank god for the russians. Seriously I love you guys for that, having 10k supers, not so much. Anyway, you want to stop the import/export cycle by removing JFs. Well, here's what would happen, mega, zyd, and morphite prices would skyrocket, most likely doubling, maybe tripling. All modules and ship prices would skyrocket in turn, everyone would be ******. Highsec relies on null for high end minerals, and nullsec relies on highsec for low grades. But lets take a look at what would happen if null and high sec broke off like most of you want (not necessarily due to JF removal, though that would shoot mineral prices through the roof).

You want to build a titan, you have the bps, the csaa, and the skills so you're all set to go. You just need minerals. Assuming an ME of at least 50 on the components and an ME of 1 on the ship itself, you've settled on an Erebus, because **** the haters Gallente rules (lol). So what minerals do you need?

3,561,896,679 Tritanium
864,647,581 Pyerite
295,917,191 Mexallon
51,715,806 Isogen
14,433,486 Nocxium
2,603,576 Zydrine
1,279,018 Megacyte

Lot huh, so you get to it, you assemble a fleet of 20 with a perfect Rorqual for boosting. Now anyone who actually lives in nullsec and mines knows at most you can get 2 hours of mining in every other day at most if you don't get hit with the scourge of cloaky campers with covert cynos who will slaughter you with a black ops hot drop when they find you, but we're going to assume you found a magical happy system with upgrades to 3 that never ever ever gets camped.

So you and your fleet decide you're going to work over the large grav as quickly as possible setting up 2 positions to minimize movement and make things easier on your haulers. So according to Bloodtear numbers the large grav contains:

1,769,240 Tritanium
605,460 Pyerite
922,970 Mexallon
830,250 Isogen
302,100 Nocxium
117,120 Megacyte
282,990 Zydrine

So in order to get the Trit for your Erebus you would have to flip the grav 2,014 times. Now Bloodtear tells us it takes 34 man hours to strip the large grav (even though the med would work better but you want to maximize efficiency and dont want to move around constantly). For your 20 hulks it takes about 2 hours to flip the site, and you can do that 3 times per day. Which means it would take 4,028 hours, a little over 671 days to get your minerals or 1.85 years. Add in the time for the build on components and the ship itself it's take 2 years to make your ship. You build it and sell it to an alliance member for 50 bil, yay. You split the isk among the 20 hulk pilots, because the haulers and booster were their alts. You have 2.5 bil each. Fun. Now only counting the time spent actually mining you made 620,656 thousand isk per hour.

Now everyone in null knows it would never go that smoothly. You'd have long periods of time, days or weeks, where you couldn't mine. You'd lose ships constantly, you'd lose haulers, hell you might lose that booster because some alliance mate got paid off to bump that Rorq out of the pos and light a cyno so enemy supers could drop on it. So you'd just end up losing money overall. Hell to build 50 battle cruisers you'd have to flip the damn thing 66 times. No one would undock, no one would fight, they'd all be too damn scared of losing their ships. Hell even ammo would be near impossible to get. And highsec would die because it would have hardly any mega or zyd, no one would export because it would all be needed locally. You wouldnt be able to build anything more than the occasional frigate because all you would have is loot reprocessing for the highs. But you'd still have shitfucktons of Trit, and it would all end up worthless, because what good is 5 trillion tritanium if no one can use it because they lack the other needed minerals?

Oh and before you start saying low sec will save you, it won't. It's just as bad as null, if not worse because you wont have gravs and thus any idiot with a thrasher will still be able to kill you. High sec needs null sec, and null sec needs high sec and when CCP gave us JFs they basically tore up the ****** 1 lane dirt road between the two and built an interstate. And you should be damn grateful for it. Besides, any miner in highsec would be cringing at the suggestion of removing jfs because they should know (though I'm sure some don't) that most of their money comes from null. As a ship builder I import over a billion tritanium alone each week for my projects. I have a team of compressors and haulers to do facilitate that and over 20 billion isk is shoved into high sec miners pockets every week. And I'm a mid scale builder. Full scale capital and supercapital builders spend hundreds of billions sometimes even trillions of isk a month on minerals for import. I'm sure that come winter when supers will start dying and having to be replaced the DRF will be injecting trillions of isk weekly into highsec mineral markets. So thank the JFs, bow to them, worship them, because they allow pubbies like you to take vast riches from nullsec. Hell you make shittons off TEST alone with our carrier a week ratting losses. So you keep whining and shooting yourselves in the foot. We'll keep exploding and shoving money into your wallets until CCP removes JFs and you start crying about your trit not selling.

Easy :) If I haul it I only need ~140 JF jumps

or I use the totally cool compression and only need to to 5 JF jumps (hey... I can haul/build titans alone...)

You are a bloody fudging IDIOT if you think supers are built by JF hauling. Supers are built by building caps in lowsec, then jumping them up to the alliance/super building area with a station in it or next door, then the capitals are reprocessed into the parts needed. Done with a **** ton more "cargo" than a JF.




The Caldari stations and research aspect of the other stations needs to simply be improved to provide more access to more players without a gigantic clusterfuck of station upgrades to get anywhere.



That's how big alliances move their sov upgrade IV and Vs as they are too big to haul in anything but a freighter.

Wow. 0.0 is dangerous? We mine in wormholes in covetors because the danger provides a negative cost/benefit for a hulk. Dangerous. You have local. You have fixed gates with little chance of a surprise if you're not afk. You don't need better mining ships because of "danger". You need miners with balls.

Hell, you don't even need to keep watching DScan thanks to the crutch called local.

Reread what I said, then realize I am going to **** up the talun channel later now to make fun of your illiteracy.

No doubts you will.

However, you worded it such that it appears you're stating things are better in wormholes because people are only losing covetors, not hulks. If 74% of ABC is being mined in null, and they're only showing 25% of covetor kills and an unknown percentage of hulk kills (low and high sec numbers missing from the kills) then that implies null being the safer place to mine? They appear to be mining at least 3x the amount as wormholes, and that seems a bit low.