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T2 versus faction weapons - best dps w/ skills?
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Ore Farmer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-09-20 22:13:41 UTC
Ok so I had my faction fitted CNR running incursions the other night and someone asked to look at my fit, and compare it to his own. He was using T2 cruise launchers instead of the Caldari Navy Cruise launchers I had equipped. He asked me why faction instead of T2. My answer = dps. Comparing the t2 with the Navy varient, and my skills (limited me from using T2 cruise launchers), the faction launchers were the best option over T1s for me. My question is...with maxxed skills, do T2s surpass Faction weapons, and at what point? Im not only curious with launchers, but blasters/railguns/etc.
Whiteknight03
Trilon Industries and Exploration
#2 - 2011-09-20 22:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Whiteknight03
Edit: Nevermind. T2 is pretty much always better than faction.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2011-09-20 22:41:36 UTC
Top faction launchers (CN) will always have a higher RoF than T2 launchers. Faction also has a larger capacity. T2 launchers firing high damage ammunition, however, will out-DPS faction launchers at launcher spec 3.

T2 guns will always outdamage faction guns firing the same ammunition starting at spec 3 (though the difference is marginal there) and definitely do better at spec 4-5. The added flexibility of T2 ammunition makes T2 short range guns clearly superior, but the ancillary benefits associated with faction long range guns (especially Tachyons) can make them a better choice depending on circumstance.
Ore Farmer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-09-20 22:53:46 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Top faction launchers (CN) will always have a higher RoF than T2 launchers. Faction also has a larger capacity. T2 launchers firing high damage ammunition, however, will out-DPS faction launchers at launcher spec 3.

T2 guns will always outdamage faction guns firing the same ammunition starting at spec 3 (though the difference is marginal there) and definitely do better at spec 4-5. The added flexibility of T2 ammunition makes T2 short range guns clearly superior, but the ancillary benefits associated with faction long range guns (especially Tachyons) can make them a better choice depending on circumstance.


So for launchers...If Im just doing PVE...faction would be better since high damage rounds wouldnt be worth the added cost? And with guns, it just depends on skills and the overall situation on what varient of gun choice would be best for each scenario?

I very much appreciate the breakdown of the information too...its exactly the kind of answer I was looking to find.
Goose99
#5 - 2011-09-20 23:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Ore Farmer wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Top faction launchers (CN) will always have a higher RoF than T2 launchers. Faction also has a larger capacity. T2 launchers firing high damage ammunition, however, will out-DPS faction launchers at launcher spec 3.

T2 guns will always outdamage faction guns firing the same ammunition starting at spec 3 (though the difference is marginal there) and definitely do better at spec 4-5. The added flexibility of T2 ammunition makes T2 short range guns clearly superior, but the ancillary benefits associated with faction long range guns (especially Tachyons) can make them a better choice depending on circumstance.


So for launchers...If Im just doing PVE...faction would be better since high damage rounds wouldnt be worth the added cost? And with guns, it just depends on skills and the overall situation on what varient of gun choice would be best for each scenario?

I very much appreciate the breakdown of the information too...its exactly the kind of answer I was looking to find.


Faction ammo is almost always worth the added cost over t1. Some t2 ammo are worth their cost over t1, depending on circumstances. Decreased kill time means more rat bounty in the same amount of time, which more than pays for increased ammo cost. Exceptions include autos, where rop is high and volley low.

Lancher balance is a bit different than guns. T2 guns outdps faction guns, when both have t1/faction ammo loaded. Faction launchers outdps T2 launchers, when both have t1/faction ammo loaded.

T2 precision missiles are never worth using. T2 fury missiles may be worth using when most targets are large. Exp radius penalty limit applied dps. Range penalty is non-issue for cruise, but usually unacceptable for torp/ham.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2011-09-20 23:19:25 UTC
Ore Farmer wrote:
So for launchers...If Im just doing PVE...faction would be better since high damage rounds wouldnt be worth the added cost? And with guns, it just depends on skills and the overall situation on what varient of gun choice would be best for each scenario?


It's probably even more circumstantial than that. For instance, whether Fury missiles actually apply more damage than standard or CN missiles is highly dependent on a) what ship you're flying and b) the rest of the fit. But if Furies take down a target with one less volley than CN (remember, Furies increase damage, CN launchers increase RoF) than T2 launchers rather quickly pull ahead (due to long launcher cycle times).

Personally, I use Fury missiles most of the time. It seems like the only logical choice in a NH and is often the better choice in a Tengu. In a Raven/CNR the decreased ability to apply damage to sub-BS opponents is a larger issue, especially if you don't have maxed missile support skills (yes, including GMP 5) and proper rigs (rigors) and a painter. BUT, if you have all that than Furies suddenly look like a much, much better option for the saved volley.

Also note, this is all about guided missiles. With unguided missiles -- as with short range guns -- you want T2, period. You're going to need the option to switch to Javelin.

Guns... depend. As mentioned, faction Tachs are often a better option. Tight fits hybrid-bonused boats can be worked around with faction guns (but there is a lot of variation in just what faction rails do for you, so be careful). I suppose faction 1400s would seriously help Maelstroms in the fitting department but I've never looked into it.
Ore Farmer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-09-20 23:49:09 UTC
Cool, you guys have been more than helpful and informative. I very much appreciate the help and your time.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#8 - 2011-09-21 12:39:53 UTC
Fury cruise missiles have a base explosion radius of 550m, which is worse than torpodoes. This can be combated with painter sand rigor rigs. That said, against cruiser size targets the fury variants will hardly ever get their full paper dps.

As you're talking about incursions:
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=24&return_to=

Look at the signature radii of many of the ships, particularly the Yulai and Antems (the sniper ships against which Ravens are generally most useful) and you'll see that fury missile won't apply properly especially since target painters generally don't have the range to hit these targets either.

I'm saying navy/faction cruise missiles are better than their t2 variants.
Joss56
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-09-21 12:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Joss56
Ore Farmer wrote:
Ok so I had my faction fitted CNR running incursions the other night and someone asked to look at my fit, and compare it to his own. He was using T2 cruise launchers instead of the Caldari Navy Cruise launchers I had equipped. He asked me why faction instead of T2. My answer = dps. Comparing the t2 with the Navy varient, and my skills (limited me from using T2 cruise launchers), the faction launchers were the best option over T1s for me. My question is...with maxxed skills, do T2s surpass Faction weapons, and at what point? Im not only curious with launchers, but blasters/railguns/etc.


Weapon type spec (T2) lvl4 is +8% dmg

I don't think faction stuff and it's small advantages like +missiles and 0.35 sec rof bonus are better because this difference means you have to shoot for a long time before you get those 8%

Plus, 85/90M the faction launcher for about 0.35 sec rof and more missiles VS +8% dmg and 2.5M is it really worthy?

You need CPU safe then why not but when you're noob, but you're better using arbalest ones until you can fit T2 version and always train it at least lvl4. Plus if you get scanned the chances you get ganked are suddenly very low.

Rails/blasters: T2's+faction ammo better than EFT numbers every day
Autos/arty: T2's+faction ammo
Lasers: Don't have enough experience

EDIT: If you use Cruise missiles use rigors rigs (x2) and has the poster above: T2 missiles have bigger radius explosion, faction or even regular ones can have better dmg application depending if there are Tp's or not and target size/speed
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-09-21 20:07:29 UTC
Whiteknight03 wrote:
Edit: Nevermind. T2 is pretty much always better than faction.



Confirming this. T2 is always better than faction, right up until you get to meta 13, but then again you're paying 250-400m a gun, so have fun fitting a CNR or Navy Apoc with seven/eight of those *******.

No faction weapon makes up for the lack of ability to use tech two ammo, in addition to the 2% more damage per level of specialization.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2011-09-21 20:11:33 UTC
Joss56 wrote:
Weapon type spec (T2) lvl4 is +8% dmg

I don't think faction stuff and it's small advantages like +missiles and 0.35 sec rof bonus are better because this difference means you have to shoot for a long time before you get those 8%


I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Faction launchers will always have a better RoF than T2 even at spec 5. At spec 4, no other skills or mods included, you're looking at 15.4 seconds for CN and 16.2 seconds for T2, a 5.2% difference that translates directly into increased damage over time. At spec 5 that drops to a 2.9% difference, but faction still wins out. So when firing the same missiles, faction always outdamages T2 and always has the same volley. The only way to make T2 perform better than faction is to use ammunition that faction can't use, and that only works against large, slow targets (or targets with appropriate compensation effects applied to them) or a very narrow band of small, fast targets.

Personally I'd always take T2 launchers over faction, but I'd also make damn sure I fit to take advantage of Fury missiles. But that certainly limits fitting options.
Goose99
#12 - 2011-09-21 22:12:22 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Joss56 wrote:
Weapon type spec (T2) lvl4 is +8% dmg

I don't think faction stuff and it's small advantages like +missiles and 0.35 sec rof bonus are better because this difference means you have to shoot for a long time before you get those 8%


I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Faction launchers will always have a better RoF than T2 even at spec 5. At spec 4, no other skills or mods included, you're looking at 15.4 seconds for CN and 16.2 seconds for T2, a 5.2% difference that translates directly into increased damage over time. At spec 5 that drops to a 2.9% difference, but faction still wins out. So when firing the same missiles, faction always outdamages T2 and always has the same volley. The only way to make T2 perform better than faction is to use ammunition that faction can't use, and that only works against large, slow targets (or targets with appropriate compensation effects applied to them) or a very narrow band of small, fast targets.

Personally I'd always take T2 launchers over faction, but I'd also make damn sure I fit to take advantage of Fury missiles. But that certainly limits fitting options.


Same volley is wrong. The effect of specialization skill on dmg multiplier for t2 launcher increases volley, for all ammo. With both T2 and faction launchers using regular/faction ammo, t2 will have higher volley.

For launchers, gap in rop is big enough to overtake volley increase, and results in faction launcher having more dps with the same ammo.

For guns, gap in rop is not big enough to overtake volley increase, and results in t2 guns having more dps with the same ammo.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2011-09-21 22:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Goose99 wrote:
Same volley is wrong. The effect of specialization skill on dmg multiplier for t2 launcher increases volley, for all ammo. With both T2 and faction launchers using regular/faction ammo, t2 will have higher volley.


Nope. Gun specs increase damage modifier by 2%. Launcher specs decrease RoF by 2%. Why it's different I can't say, but that's the way it is. Which is at least part of why the math on which launcher is better is different than the math on which gun is better.

Edit: trust me. I've made a fool of myself on these very forums enough to have learned this one more or less by heart.
Goose99
#14 - 2011-09-21 22:27:15 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Same volley is wrong. The effect of specialization skill on dmg multiplier for t2 launcher increases volley, for all ammo. With both T2 and faction launchers using regular/faction ammo, t2 will have higher volley.


Nope. Gun specs increase damage modifier by 2%. Launcher specs decrease RoF by 2%. Why it's different I can't say, but that's the way it is. Which is at least part of why the math on which launcher is better is different than the math on which gun is better.


Interesting, never noticed that. Learn something new every day. +1
Joss56
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-09-22 01:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Joss56
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Faction launchers will always have a better RoF than T2 even at spec 5. At spec 4, no other skills or mods included, you're looking at 15.4 seconds for CN and 16.2 seconds for T2, a 5.2% difference that translates directly into increased damage over time.


I'm not saying there's no difference, I'm just saying the 5.2% difference is not worthy of 80M (sry for the 8% dmg, should said 8% rof)

let's see you shoot guristas BS's?
So you'll 3 volley with T2 launcher and faction ammo (you're smart so you're using riggors heh?)
Then your friend is using faction launchers and faction ammo, he 3 volley the fracking bs, ho wait!

He will shoot the bs faster than you for just 1sec? maybe one sec and few cents?
C'mon lets be realistic, 1sec difference will completely change the game for someone already wasting time with pixels?

Unless you play with macros and 5.2% make the difference after 24h non stop shooting ****, someone reasonable will not use those or advice those.
Yes advice the guy to use faction tank mods, ammo, bcu's but the launchers it's just silly.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10676261

I'm very sure this guys shoots faster than you or I, every one should fly stuff like this heh? - Love the regular ammo in Pirate
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-09-22 01:48:20 UTC
Don't forget faction weapons nearly always have way better fitting requirements than T2.

And in the case of faction Tachyons Vs T2, faction Tachs require significantly less cap to fire. So less cap may mean more damage mods? It's worth investigating :)

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Joss56
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-09-22 02:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Joss56
Headerman wrote:
Don't forget faction weapons nearly always have way better fitting requirements than T2.

And in the case of faction Tachyons Vs T2, faction Tachs require significantly less cap to fire. So less cap may mean more damage mods? It's worth investigating :)


After playing a little bit with with EFT yes seems tachs are the exception, now eft numbers and IG is not always realistic, not saying never and tachs seem to be the exception.
Goose99
#18 - 2011-09-22 04:24:40 UTC
Joss56 wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Don't forget faction weapons nearly always have way better fitting requirements than T2.

And in the case of faction Tachyons Vs T2, faction Tachs require significantly less cap to fire. So less cap may mean more damage mods? It's worth investigating :)


After playing a little bit with with EFT yes seems tachs are the exception, now eft numbers and IG is not always realistic, not saying never and tachs seem to be the exception.


For tachs, it's not just eft numbers, the cap usage difference is easily felt if you've used the two. Grid usage of t2 tachs are high enough that they're only truly viable for Bhaalgorn, severely limit fitting options for NM, and impossible for Paladin and every other ship.

For launchers, both faction and t2 are viable. I use faction hmls on tengu for my carebear toon. I don't grind isk in overcrowded hubs, and don't expect it to pop, so it's a one time investment. Furys aren't an option, as mission selection in the everyshore region has high number of frig rats, and tengu has no drone bay.

Believe or not, the dps gap has paid for the price of the faction launchers long ago. You need to think like a carebear. The price of faction launchers has been stable, and haven't slipped in a long time. Assuming you're in quiet part of highsec, and your boat don't pop, you lose nothing by investing in launchers, since you can always sell it for the same price. Meanwhile, you get free bonus isk by using it.