EVE General Discussion

Eve is dying. I know we've all heard it before, but necessarily, it has to. This is because character progression in the game trundles forward at a set pace for everyone - meaning that eventually everyone will be able to fly every ship, and unless the number of newbies joining the game each period of time increases rather than remains constant, the "pyramid" of eve where in a minority are highly skilled and therefore remain "special" will reverse. In fact we are seeing this now, with many people able to fly tech 3 ships and even super-capitals.

This would not be so bad, had monetary inflation not taken place in addition to skillpoint inflation. While the latter is essentially inevitable, the former is preventable and in fact - I would argue - has been encouraged by short-sighted and ill-considered decisions by CCP. Of course I am referring to the ability of most players to afford top-tier marauders and strategic cruisers. And when I say 'most players' I am not referring to nullsec or wormhole players, who have dared the dangers of Eve to acquire the shinyest riches. I refer to the zero-risk, high-sec mission runner.

When I started playing Eve back in 1998, there were four classes of ship - frigate, cruiser, battleship and industrial. If you were a cool guy, you had a top-tier frigate. I once encountered a guy in a cruiser, and pissed my pants. There were rumours that a few of the biggest corporations had a battleship each that they would commit in only the most dire of situations. Fast forward to today - if you fly a battleship you are a laughing stock. Eve holds no wonder, no goal. Newbies who train skills at six-times the speed that we did, complain (rightly) that everyone but them is in a billion-isk ship, and it seems unreasonably far away. Everyone has reached the end-game.

Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad if it was just high-risk players who had access to such equipment. But level 4 missions run by zero-risk NPC-corpers have now also provided the end game. Far from the stepping-stone they were initially envisaged as by CCP, they have become the sole face of Eve for many; a sad lot whose sole Eve experience is logging in, accepting a mission they have already run a thousand times, then completing it using the same mundane routine. I doubt many of these guys even have to look at the screen while they do it. If I was them, I wouldn't even want to. Placing these in hi-sec was a mistake by CCP (one they later acknowledged iirc) so it came as a surprise to myself when "incursions" were introduced in addition - providing a huge amount more cash for the same non-existent risk.

So Eve is dying, slowly. Not through a big controversial change introduced to the game - some Sony-Online-Entertainment-Star-Wars-Galaxies-esque "New Game Experience" game-assassination that CCP seem in perpetual fear of - but through the opposite: idleness and stagnation.

There are of course a few remedies that come to mind. Move the end game - a technique referred to as the "carrot" - where by additional ships are introduced at the high end that are more powerful and expensive than anything else currently in the game. This would "push" the other ships of the game downwards, giving high-skilled age-old characters something new to aim for while adding another goal for those approaching the end game. A good idea in theory, but what of the effort? One ship would of course not be enough; more likely we will require an entire new line of ships. In addition it would have to be a magnitude of ships all introduced at once so that players do not feel they are perpetually "at" the end game, but can feel comfortable knowing they are on but a stepping stone to a greater goal. These ships must also be a fair distance away; it is fair to say many people are already set to "springboard" onto any tech-3 battleships/tech-2 capitals that appear in only about a week. This will all require a huge art effort as the new ships are designed, a huge rebalancing, Q&A, storytelling, and playtesting effort - and of course promises a whole raft of additional bugs. All while making new players feel even more alienated as they join only to realize the top ships could be two years away. I would argue this would not encourage new players into Eve.

Another remedy would be to use the "stick" and attempt to "revert" by reversing inflation. This would prove highly unpopular by the mindless masses of high-sec mission runners, who of course, cannot stand the idea of their non-existent internet space ships being prized from their skinny, quick-moving fingers. Of course I am referring to the removal of isk-generating faucets from high-sec, perhaps down to level-3 missions. This would obviously prove highly controversial, as I have already seen in my previous thread, in which NPC-corp mission runners react aggressively to an idea I put forward for discussion, in the hope of increasing the quality of Eve. It is true that these NPC high-seccers have lost all sense of responsibility and judgement - married so closely to the idea of making huge amounts of virtual money that the notion that Eve is a "game" in which players should have "fun" seems exotic. They will complain there is no challenge yet race towards the goal of not being challenged. Similarly to those children who will purchase a new game then immediately use cheats; completing the game in an instant before complaining it was boring. They cannot take responsibility for themselves and therefore muse be "rescued" from themselves by a game developer who must know when to abandon their normally laudible laissez-faire approach.

Quality thread

Not even joking, that was a piece of art

Well somehow I can relate to you.

But resetting Eve won't fix anything. I know what I can do now and going back to square one would be....anticlimatic though most likely fun for a while ;)

Well Pochelympe in 2004 THAT was a time...

I started Eve in 2003 and certainly agree with you over the sense of wonder which was a strong part of the game back then.

I also agree over the amount of ISK that can be made in highsec, it’s been far too high for a long time.

However I think we need to look at the game as a whole as things are very different now to when I first started mostly in a political sense. In 2003 not only was ISK much harder to come by but with far fewer players “space” was not crowded as it is today. Additionally it was much easier for small to medium sized corps to set up in lowsec and nullsec as Alliance influence was much less then.

Unfortunately there no real value in going to lowsec (except for pvp) it’s part of the game that has been neglected over the years. Compared to the amount of ISK that can be generated in highsec, lowsec is not a good business proposition.

On balance I don’t see skill points as the real problem but inflation is certainly an issue.

I agree with many of your points. Monetary inflation is a big problem for the game. However, I think skillpoint inflation is less of a problem than many people think.

It's not just about getting into the biggest shiny. I am a carrier pilot, gallente carrier 5. There isn't much I could do to improve my carrier. However, my rush to this ship left me lacking in versatility. Being able to fly every gallente ship in the game (barring the erebus, which I am honestly not that interested in) leaves me out of 99% of fleet doctrines.

So now that I have reached what most people consider to be the "end game", I find myself turning back to pick up minny and amarr cruiser 5, because my oneiros isn't very desirable as a logi. Caldari cruiser 5, because everyone wants a falcon over my arazu. I need to train up to t2 weapons for hurricanes and drakes, and there's a lot more to tack on to the list, but you get the idea.

Sure, lots of people who haven't taken extended breaks as I have may have already reached all these goals, but their versatility is paying off big time. I agree new stuff to work towards should be added, though, to give them stuff to look forward to.

I also think the 2 year training time to get into the biggest shiny isn't as much a turn off as you would think. Many people, like myself, are turned off of games where you reach the 'end game' in the first two months of playing. For me, the idea that even with all the time I've put into the game there are still a lot more things to look forward to is a good thing.

Also, don't remove missions from highsec, people who play there actually do contribute a lot to the game, even if you don't directly realize it. There should just be mechanisms that force players to balance their isk generation. Highsec missions could probably benefit from switching to a system more like FW, where the main reward is LP with a still decent ISK kicker. This would encourage more marketeering, as well as make pilots think about where they are missioning and whether they are diluting their LP store worth.

worth the time.

Also fun is not equal to usefulness.

To add being part of an conflict got some strange feeling attached, doing mundane repetitive action is boring for many, me included.. MMO as an genre starts with others around and forming some form of alliance, getting your hands into someone elses pie, if that is the right expression.

Huh?..Eve was introduced in 2003...

Hey OP, get off your lazy ass and kill some ******* mission runners if its a problem.

And you did not take time into consideration either. If an item costs money, and you can make money, eventually you can buy the item. You can make money in hisec from industry, trading, plexing and scamming all on the level of mission running or greater, and also Incursions.

Also, posting in another

Eve is dying thread
Missions are killing Eve thread
I can present a fallacy with my 12th grade writing level and impress the masses thread

Read teh other threads about JBs, they arnt the problem, all they do is allow an alliance to move quickly (and at quite some cost) through its own space. The problem is force projection using cynos and capitals/supers, teh ability to launch an entire fleet of BSs through a titan bridge into enemy territory and leave you titan nice and safe at home.

Removing JBs wont make Eve bigger, just more boring.

too many dumb scrubs grinding only for their plexes, for no other goddamn reason, no goal in-game
to hell with it, nerf every isk faucet, if it ticks in your wallet paid by concord nerf it, if it did not come from transactions with other players nerf it
nerf it all, null sec anomalies, incursions, missions all of it nerf it by half
it's austerity time foos we's all greek now!