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First shot at pvping in non-disposable ships (Jaguar, Harpy, Cynabal)
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Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-03-04 02:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
I threw together a few ships, just wondering if I can get any feedback. Never used non-disposable ships before and I'm hoping these designs will be able to survive me multiple encounters.

[Harpy, My Harpy]
Co-Processor I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Small C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100
Warp Disruptor II

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

A small kiting boat for solo hunting short-range frigates. Defense based around range, high resists and shield boosters feed by cap boosters.

159 DPS, 8.4k EHP, 83/sec active tank (at max skill)


[Jaguar, Mean Jag]
Power Diagnostic System II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Damage Control II

Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Shield Extender II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I

A heavy tackler. Uses a passive tank combined with high resists.

131 DPS, 10k EHP, 72/sec passive tank (at max skill)


[Cynabal, dualprop100mn]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
10MN MicroWarpdrive II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

This is the big one, the one I really don't want to lose (hence the crazy prop setup). The idea is to hunt weak-looking things and try not to get tackled. If I do get tackled and things look scary, I just rocket out of scram range with the oversized afterburner.

520 DPS, 26k EHP, 43/sec passive tank.



Looks alright?
Ettu Brute II
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-03-04 03:01:32 UTC
I've never done any serious PvP, but I don't think the terms "pvping" and "non-disposable ships" should appear in the same phrase or sentence.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2012-03-04 03:08:46 UTC
Ettu Brute II wrote:
I've never done any serious PvP, but I don't think the terms "pvping" and "non-disposable ships" should appear in the same phrase or sentence.


This. The instant you undock, especially if you're looking for PvP, you write the ship off as a loss.

So, stick with the AFs for now, since they're far more disposable. And I don't think the pair of SPRs in the lows of that Jag are a good idea, especially if you're planning on ever using that Neut on there. Go for some damage mods or something like that instead (or even more PDSes to let you get rid of that ACR rig and give you more cap life).
Liam Mirren
#4 - 2012-03-04 03:37:50 UTC
Assuming the char you posted on is your main then checking BC shows zero history, based on that I'd say that you really shouldn't use T2/faction ships in pvp to start out. PVP is very much about strategy and experience and ships like that will make good pilots better, but they won't make inexperienced pilots good.

Harpy fit makes sense to a degree, realise that you fly a slow ship and any frig that lands on top of you, or you allow to let close, will kill you. The Jag fit doesn't make much sense. SPR in pvp just doesn't work too well, and would you be heavy tackler you'd want a nos, not a neut. Cynabal isn't bad as such.

Also realise that if you want to do solo pvp you have to make a choice. If you fly OP/really good ships you'll only catch idiots and the unwary, all the others will either avoid you or trap you. If you fly ships that are perceived to be less good then you have a bigger chance of finding solo engagements or at least people willing to commit without too much backup. Choices choices.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-03-04 04:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
I've fought with low-sp Punisher/Coercer/Thrasher/Rifter alts before, but they seem so ineffectual, especially against the very common battlecruiser gangs.

I make 25 million isk per day for running missions an hour or two, so I can write off tech 2 frigates but I'm saving up for a billion isk pve machariel, so I don't want to suffer too many setbacks. The Cynabal would only be used in gangs I am comfortable with, or against targets of opportunity (miners, haulers, pve ships). If the Cynabal gets into a tough fight, I'm getting out of there rather than risking it.

So the harpy could work, but not solo I take it.

At least in my eyes, the Jaguar doesn't really need capacitor. Without mwd or neut running it's cap-stable. Given that I'll be in scram range, I won't have the mwd running most of the battle, so all I'll have to worry about are the Damage Control (0 cap), Warp Scram (0.8 cap/sec) and Web (0.6 cap/sec). I really don't need all that much capacitor, so the neut is just to use all that excess capacitor to harass my opponent.

But given that all the suggestions are against passive tank for pvp, I fixed it up, and it looks a lot better now other than a reduced passive tank.

[Jaguar, Mean Jag II]
Power Diagnostic System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Shield Extender II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

183 DPS, 9.2k EHP, 38 hp/sec passive tank
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-03-04 11:14:48 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
I've fought with low-sp Punisher/Coercer/Thrasher/Rifter alts before, but they seem so ineffectual, especially against the very common battlecruiser gangs.

I make 25 million isk per day for running missions an hour or two, so I can write off tech 2 frigates but I'm saving up for a billion isk pve machariel, so I don't want to suffer too many setbacks. The Cynabal would only be used in gangs I am comfortable with, or against targets of opportunity (miners, haulers, pve ships). If the Cynabal gets into a tough fight, I'm getting out of there rather than risking it.

So the harpy could work, but not solo I take it.

At least in my eyes, the Jaguar doesn't really need capacitor. Without mwd or neut running it's cap-stable. Given that I'll be in scram range, I won't have the mwd running most of the battle, so all I'll have to worry about are the Damage Control (0 cap), Warp Scram (0.8 cap/sec) and Web (0.6 cap/sec). I really don't need all that much capacitor, so the neut is just to use all that excess capacitor to harass my opponent.

But given that all the suggestions are against passive tank for pvp, I fixed it up, and it looks a lot better now other than a reduced passive tank.

[Jaguar, Mean Jag II]
Power Diagnostic System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Shield Extender II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

183 DPS, 9.2k EHP, 38 hp/sec passive tank


If the cynabal gets into a fight you don't feel happy with, it's dead. There is no getting out if you have points and webs on you and a cynabal will have those on it as it's a nice juicy killmail to have on your killboard

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Liam Mirren
#7 - 2012-03-04 11:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
That looks a lot better, still think the neut is wrong, depending on what you attack.

A Neut is only useful in solo combat if you have more disposable cap than the other guy so if you go against another frigate then yes it may be useful, but if you go against cruiser or bigger the only thing that will happen is neuting out yourself because they have WAY more cap. Apart from that many pvp fit ships fit neuts, meaning you'll probably lose scram and if that happens they break free, get range and kill you. to counter that you fit a short cycle small NOS to counter their longer cycle neut(s).

So if you attack a cruiser or bigger don't slap on the NOS right away, first check if he has neuts (if he does you'll know), immediately after he did his neut thing THEN you hit the NOS. That gives you the best chance of not being bothered by it too much.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-03-04 14:49:22 UTC
From all the responses, this is the only ship it sounds like I'd want to fly:

[Jaguar, Better Jag]
Power Diagnostic System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Shield Extender II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small 'Knave' Energy Drain

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

I agree that I'd prefer the nos over the neut against cruisers, but the hope was that if I was fighting cruisers/battlecruisers in my frigate gang, I'd have some other guys to cover my ass in case I get neuted, and if I was fighting frigates/destroyers, the neut would be superior for cap warfare. Still, it couldn't hurt to be assured, though it feels like all that cap I'm not using is going to go to waste.

Thanks for the input.
Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#9 - 2012-03-04 17:17:30 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
I've fought with low-sp Punisher/Coercer/Thrasher/Rifter alts before, but they seem so ineffectual, especially against the very common battlecruiser gangs.



Not for nothing, but if you're going up against BC gangs alone, you're doing something wrong. That said, a fleet of "low-sp" frigate/destroyers can easily take out BCs if the BC pilots aren't paying attention (and sometimes even if they are). You don't always need a shiny T2/faction ship to kill larger ships. ;)

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-04 18:52:55 UTC
Cameron Zero wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:
I've fought with low-sp Punisher/Coercer/Thrasher/Rifter alts before, but they seem so ineffectual, especially against the very common battlecruiser gangs.



Not for nothing, but if you're going up against BC gangs alone, you're doing something wrong. That said, a fleet of "low-sp" frigate/destroyers can easily take out BCs if the BC pilots aren't paying attention (and sometimes even if they are). You don't always need a shiny T2/faction ship to kill larger ships. ;)


Well that's the plan usually, try to gank one before his buddies show up ;)

This is why I want to fly tech 2 rather than tech 1 as is often suggested... Here is a comparison of some fittings I made or looked up:

1. Tech 1 Frigate, Tech 1 Mods:
3k EHP, 60 DPS, 1 million isk

2. Tech 1 Frigate, Tech 2 Mods:
5k EHP, 120 DPS, 15 million isk

3. Tech 2 Frigate, Tech 2 Mods:
10k EHP, 180 DPS, 30 million isk (given that it's insurable for 50% of the chassis price)

4. Tech 1 Battlecruiser, Tech 2 Mods:
60k EHP, 600 DPS, 60 million isk (given that it's insurable)

I always fly option 1. Option 2 just doesn't seem cost-effective... 15x cost increase for less than 2x the performance increase. Option 3 is appealing to me because it's just another 2x cost increase for an almost equivalent performance upgrade. Option 4 is a whole other ball game, and I'd prefer to keep the mobility and versatility of small ships for now.
Liam Mirren
#11 - 2012-03-04 20:55:20 UTC
You don't get 50% insurance from T2 ships, especially not since the AF buff and the price increase.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Peri Simone
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#12 - 2012-03-05 02:32:12 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
You don't get 50% insurance from T2 ships, especially not since the AF buff and the price increase.


25-33% is closer to the ballpark, depending whether you're buying at Sell or Buy price.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-03-05 12:37:05 UTC
Peri Simone wrote:
Liam Mirren wrote:
You don't get 50% insurance from T2 ships, especially not since the AF buff and the price increase.


25-33% is closer to the ballpark, depending whether you're buying at Sell or Buy price.


That's unfortunate.

Well, then 40 million isk for a tech 2 assuming it gets blown up eventually (+cost of insurance, forgot to add that too).

It's starting to look a little more pricey, but it still looks more appealing to me than upgrading mods without upgrading chassis.
Kain De'Stroi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-03-05 14:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kain De'Stroi
mxzf wrote:
Ettu Brute II wrote:
I've never done any serious PvP, but I don't think the terms "pvping" and "non-disposable ships" should appear in the same phrase or sentence.


This. The instant you undock, especially if you're looking for PvP, you write the ship off as a loss.




In early eve before inflation kicked in only rookie ships where disposable.
It could take you a month to put a cruiser together.
And in my opinion it was awesome and the very best of times.

If your looking for an adrenaline rush and allot of fun then i highly recommend jumping into something "non-disposable"
Liam Mirren
#15 - 2012-03-05 14:23:57 UTC
There is no inflation, a t1 cruiser back then costs about as much as it costs now. There is more isk but that in itself doesn't mean there's inflation.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Kain De'Stroi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-03-05 14:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kain De'Stroi
Liam Mirren wrote:
There is no inflation, a t1 cruiser back then costs about as much as it costs now. There is more isk but that in itself doesn't mean there's inflation.


yea yea, if it should be correct it should be deflation, but thought maybe more people would get me if i wrote inflation.
you nitpick.
and your wrong, items where higher priced because of less supply/high demand.