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So.....Fuel prices in the UK...
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2012-03-03 16:07:07 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:


Now I don't know what greedy people you're referring to. Maybe you meant government and the parasites who depend on it. But if you meant oil companies, you're wildly uninformed. I'm sure they'd love to be greedier than the spending-addicted governments of the world, but unlike government they actually have to compete, perform, and balance their budgets.


This would be why the oil companies say they get very little money for the fuel yet every year post ever higher record profits.

Money grabbing arsewipes aside, the age of cheap oil is over and this is only going to get worse as the years go by. This is why when I get a new car my first question is how many mpg does it get.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#22 - 2012-03-03 16:41:42 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:

Then some bright spark decided it should be the only toll motorway in the country, the much needed relief road sees a trickle of the traffic it would normally see and they make it worse each year by increasing the toll. The traffic on the main section is worse than ever and the toll is so expensive it still makes more sense for business to just put up with the traffic than pay.


That the one near B'ham ?

If so, I had no idea they did that - and that junction is a frickin' nightmare.

All these tolls and taxes remind slightly of the internet piracy arguments in the last year or so, that normally go something like this: "Internet piracy is costing the movie industry $300 Billion a year!" when in reality, if internet movie piracy didn't exist, people would just play more games - or burn movies, so the movie industry wouldn't get any more cash whatsoever.

People are not going to pay for something the day after they didn't have to pay for it - just because of habit. You gotta be some kind of sick demented fool, living in a secluded reality, to come up with that as a reasoned argument. Motorists already pay road tax - now they want to put tolls on the very road they have paid for? Erm, lol?

Being a motorist just sucks. Get public transport and have a nap...or forum whore using a smartphone, or take in the scenery - like the motorists whipping by in traffic whilst you're in the bus lane.

I dare you not to smile.

AK

This space for rent.
Cierejai
Biofuel Productions
#23 - 2012-03-04 01:10:13 UTC
It's always justified to raise prices. It's a system to determine how much you are willing to pay.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-03-04 01:51:25 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:

Then some bright spark decided it should be the only toll motorway in the country, the much needed relief road sees a trickle of the traffic it would normally see and they make it worse each year by increasing the toll. The traffic on the main section is worse than ever and the toll is so expensive it still makes more sense for business to just put up with the traffic than pay.


That the one near B'ham ?

If so, I had no idea they did that - and that junction is a frickin' nightmare.

All these tolls and taxes remind slightly of the internet piracy arguments in the last year or so, that normally go something like this: "Internet piracy is costing the movie industry $300 Billion a year!" when in reality, if internet movie piracy didn't exist, people would just play more games - or burn movies, so the movie industry wouldn't get any more cash whatsoever.

People are not going to pay for something the day after they didn't have to pay for it - just because of habit. You gotta be some kind of sick demented fool, living in a secluded reality, to come up with that as a reasoned argument. Motorists already pay road tax - now they want to put tolls on the very road they have paid for? Erm, lol?

Being a motorist just sucks. Get public transport and have a nap...or forum ***** using a smartphone, or take in the scenery - like the motorists whipping by in traffic whilst you're in the bus lane.

I dare you not to smile.

AK


Yep the M6 toll, its a joke. It was supposed to be a main relief motorway that took all the through traffic going from the north-west to the Midlands along the M6 around Birmingham instead of getting snarled up along the junctions of several other motorways and main roads as it passes through.

It is almost completely empty, even at peak times.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#25 - 2012-03-04 02:11:48 UTC
I've been lucky enough to not have to deal with toll's or whatnot but I'm also cursed with living in a country that seems to hate the idea of fast travel. Even recently there was talk about digging up many of the old rails and installing a cable car that would service downtown and I was amazed at the number of people against it. And then there is the concept train that would connect 5 cities together and quite frankly reduce that stand still rush hour traffic in the morning and evening but no, we can't even get that past the drawing board.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-03-05 14:01:01 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Sidus Isaacs wrote:
Meklon wrote:
Unleaded going up by another 20p a litre tonight.... justified or not?


Since oil is finite, and people are greedy under the current monetary system, it seems only the inevitable results.


In the US, at least, the state and federal governements profit more from a gallon of gasoline than the companies who actually do the work and produce it. Which is despicable to say the least.

Also, in the last couple years alone we've piled up 5 trillion more in debt and have monetized it to the point where the US dollar is worth less than the Canadian dollar, which years ago would have been a joke. So even though demand is flat, prices have risen. Again, the fault of the government.

Now I don't know what greedy people you're referring to. Maybe you meant government and the parasites who depend on it. But if you meant oil companies, you're wildly uninformed. I'm sure they'd love to be greedier than the spending-addicted governments of the world, but unlike government they actually have to compete, perform, and balance their budgets.


Then again the government provides the army that enables the companies to get the oil...

I was refering to any living person that accepts the currnet consumer based monetary system as "natural".
Squidgey
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-03-05 16:39:55 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Despite prices of crude going up I don't understand our current Chancellor and his policies though with regards to the general increase in fuel costs via the duty, by all appearances he's a total idiot.

In 2010 he put up fuel duty under assumption that upping it would result in more tax.

It didn't.

People simply used their vehicles less (and some haulage firms went out of business) and he lost out on ~£6 Billion in tax due to it over the year.

Despite putting a freeze on duty over 2011, this year he's going to put duty up again, and the results will be obvious: less people will buy fuel due to it's high cost and resort to using other means of transport (including walking/cycling), resulting in much less money.


People don't understand the basic idea of volume vs price.

A good friend of mine opened a paintball field in 2003, and charged the lowest prices in the country.

The first year he raked in $300k - in profit.

Why? Because advertising the lowest prices in the country got everyone and their mother (literally) out to play paintball, because instead of it being $80 dollars per case of paint, it was now $35. The markup on paint was INSANE.. and still is at most fields. Only making a few bucks per case of profit but with a massively increased volume made all the difference in the world. More than once that place was packed to legal capacity and we had to turn customers away.

The second year in they packed up and moved to a building twice the size.

Ultimately they closed because the bank decided they would make more money dividing the building into 7 units. They didn't have the energy to open a third location.

To this day there is only two renters in there. The bank messed up.
Adunh Slavy
#28 - 2012-03-05 17:30:52 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Sidus Isaacs wrote:
Meklon wrote:
Unleaded going up by another 20p a litre tonight.... justified or not?


Since oil is finite, and people are greedy under the current monetary system, it seems only the inevitable results.


In the US, at least, the state and federal governements profit more from a gallon of gasoline than the companies who actually do the work and produce it. Which is despicable to say the least.

Also, in the last couple years alone we've piled up 5 trillion more in debt and have monetized it to the point where the US dollar is worth less than the Canadian dollar, which years ago would have been a joke. So even though demand is flat, prices have risen. Again, the fault of the government.

Now I don't know what greedy people you're referring to. Maybe you meant government and the parasites who depend on it. But if you meant oil companies, you're wildly uninformed. I'm sure they'd love to be greedier than the spending-addicted governments of the world, but unlike government they actually have to compete, perform, and balance their budgets.



There's a break down of the numbers here, http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.php.


As for inflation, yep quite so. The cost of gas in terms of gold and silver is down.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#29 - 2012-03-05 17:36:34 UTC
Sidus Isaacs wrote:

I was refering to any living person that accepts the currnet consumer based monetary system as "natural".



Consumer based monetary system? Sounds like Zeitgeist mumbo jumbo to me.

So long as people wish to trade with one another, and there are not people with guns forcing us to use this or that, or no money, a form of money will emerge. Money has taken many forms, from cows to little bits of paper with fancy pictures on them. Money is a tool, nothing more or less.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#30 - 2012-03-05 18:07:37 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Money has taken many forms, from cows to little bits of paper with fancy pictures on them. Money is a tool, nothing more or less.


You forgot human beings.

This space for rent.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-03-05 18:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Riedle
I think it’s about CDN $1.36/litre here in Canada for Diesel.
Regular unleaded is about CDN $1.32/litre


No matter though, soon in NA we will be running on natural gas. 
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-03-05 19:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sidus Isaacs
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Sidus Isaacs wrote:

I was refering to any living person that accepts the currnet consumer based monetary system as "natural".



Consumer based monetary system? Sounds like Zeitgeist mumbo jumbo to me.

So long as people wish to trade with one another, and there are not people with guns forcing us to use this or that, or no money, a form of money will emerge. Money has taken many forms, from cows to little bits of paper with fancy pictures on them. Money is a tool, nothing more or less.


Well, if you stop consuming, and the rest follows suit, what happens then? The economy collapses. Do the math your self.

Our current economy is a cancer that will only serve to drain the resources from out planet regardless of sustainability. Trade, barter and money was a good tool in eras past, but now it is time to get rid of it. I mean, people are starving in the world, not for a lack of food, but a lack of money, what does that say about humanity and out social and economic system as a whole?

Money is not longer just a tool, its is a method of control. Ask yourself, can you really get by without it? Without resorting to living like a hermit in the woods or becoming a beggar?

(Edit: you do not need zeitgeist to tell you this, only take a step back and look at what humanity is doing with a critical eye, but I am aware zeitgeist say something similar)
Adunh Slavy
#33 - 2012-03-05 22:57:13 UTC
Sidus Isaacs wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Sidus Isaacs wrote:

I was refering to any living person that accepts the currnet consumer based monetary system as "natural".



Consumer based monetary system? Sounds like Zeitgeist mumbo jumbo to me.

So long as people wish to trade with one another, and there are not people with guns forcing us to use this or that, or no money, a form of money will emerge. Money has taken many forms, from cows to little bits of paper with fancy pictures on them. Money is a tool, nothing more or less.


Well, if you stop consuming, and the rest follows suit, what happens then? The economy collapses. Do the math your self.

Our current economy is a cancer that will only serve to drain the resources from out planet regardless of sustainability. Trade, barter and money was a good tool in eras past, but now it is time to get rid of it. I mean, people are starving in the world, not for a lack of food, but a lack of money, what does that say about humanity and out social and economic system as a whole?

Money is not longer just a tool, its is a method of control. Ask yourself, can you really get by without it? Without resorting to living like a hermit in the woods or becoming a beggar?

(Edit: you do not need zeitgeist to tell you this, only take a step back and look at what humanity is doing with a critical eye, but I am aware zeitgeist say something similar)



You're equivocating, "Money is not longer just a tool, its is a method of control." We can use an ax as a tool build control, violence, or we can use it as a productive tool, to build a house. Regardless of how it is used, it is still a tool.

This sophomoric refrain that "money is evil" is a very misguided. Those that want power and want control will use whatever tools they can to achieve their ends. Religion, nationalism, race, money, guns, violence, fear, force, lies, the list goes on and on. There is no cure for this, humans have been doing this to each other for a very long time, and they will be doing it long after we are gone.

The problem will not be mitigated by dictates from a government. All that does is concentrate power for those that want power, and they will still use whatever tools remain to get that power. If the goal is the equality of people, then the equality of power must be included. Decentralized forms of government are the only means to accomplish this.

That means that no one authority will be able to dictate what is or is not money, or if people should, on their own, allow the free exchange of goods and services determine what is or is not money.

The desire to get rid of money is a desire to dictate to all people how they should conduct them selves and their activities. Is that really what you want, a central authority dictating to everyone?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#34 - 2012-03-05 23:06:19 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Money has taken many forms, from cows to little bits of paper with fancy pictures on them. Money is a tool, nothing more or less.


You forgot human beings.




If you are refering to the triangle of the 16th-18th centuries, that was more of a barter situation, the slaves were going in mainly one direction. They certainly represented wealth, but wealth and money are not the same thing.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Skorpynekomimi
#35 - 2012-03-06 05:01:00 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Justified? No idea.

I gave up driving cars nearly 10 years ago so it doesn't affect me, other than having drivers on the road trying to beat the lights and save 10p on fuel, and nearly colliding into me.

Then there are the mother fuckin' cyclists who somehow believe the pavement is their domain and cycle along at top speed. I purposefully get in there way and elbow/shoulder them at every opportunity.

So, I guess it will affect me if everyone gives up cars as the pavements will be chocked full of idiots getting in my way.

If, like me, you live in a city centre then you really have no excuses.

I could not justify owning a car; I live 10 min walk from the central bus station, 15 min walk from a major train station and 20 minute coach to an International Airport - but am not on the flightpath...

So, my travel expenditure is a paltry £16 per 7 days, for unlimited travel - less than a round of drinks.

No insurance
No road Tax
No cleaning needed
No garages ripping me off
No 30% annual depreciation
No threat of someone stealing it, setting fire to it, smashing the windows, keying it.
No maintenance costs
No insecurity complex bought on by seeing the exact same car as mine, but 6 months newer, or a better colour/wheels/stereo/bumper sticker/private plate.

And of course: No fuel to buy.

Last time I bought fuel it was nearing the 90 pence mark, and that was horrific.

I'd recommend opening up a Excel and crunching the numbers - the amount of money you will have at the end of the month will shock you by not having a car.

If you absolutely positively need a car, and I mean need a car, then this news sucks - all I can suggest is work harder, longer hours, or get a second job, or ask for a pay rise to off-set the increased expenditure.

AK


Can't not have a car. Buses don't run for my commute, I tend to drive places that are expensive and hard to get to by train, and you can't use a bus to go get a chinese takeaway.
I would cycle, but my commute is now nearly 10 miles. Early enough to be dark, freezing cold half the year, and high winds coming across the valley make it unsafe and unreliable.

Also, if you try and elbow me while I'm cycling around at high speed to keep up with traffic, you'll earn a boot to the ribs. One ******* who did that knocked me into a wall headfirst, and has caused nearly a grand in dental work to fix my teeth due to the impact.

Economic PVP
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-03-06 09:20:30 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:



You're equivocating, "Money is not longer just a tool, its is a method of control." We can use an ax as a tool build control, violence, or we can use it as a productive tool, to build a house. Regardless of how it is used, it is still a tool.

This sophomoric refrain that "money is evil" is a very misguided. Those that want power and want control will use whatever tools they can to achieve their ends. Religion, nationalism, race, money, guns, violence, fear, force, lies, the list goes on and on. There is no cure for this, humans have been doing this to each other for a very long time, and they will be doing it long after we are gone.

The problem will not be mitigated by dictates from a government. All that does is concentrate power for those that want power, and they will still use whatever tools remain to get that power. If the goal is the equality of people, then the equality of power must be included. Decentralized forms of government are the only means to accomplish this.

That means that no one authority will be able to dictate what is or is not money, or if people should, on their own, allow the free exchange of goods and services determine what is or is not money.

The desire to get rid of money is a desire to dictate to all people how they should conduct them selves and their activities. Is that really what you want, a central authority dictating to everyone?



First of all, I want to get rid of money because we quite clearly can create abundance with new technology. As such we can provide all the basics to all humans easily. Why does this suddenly imply a central government dictating stuff to everyone? No money and abundance will liberate humanity and make us truly free, not bind us down. This part will come sooner or later anyways though; it is only a question of time before 3D printers become advanced enough. I only want it to come sooner so that we can start working out the kinks in our society sooner, and make a better society for me, and for my family and friends. And with abundance, the ‘free exchange of goods and services’ will be a thing of the past, since we can get all we need anywhere for free. Is not that the point of technology after all, to free us from work? Once abundance is attained, we really should remove the government as it is now as well, no need for it in its current implementations.

Secondly, we are all grown up in this monetary system, and as such we are conditioned by it. Some more than others. We grow up with all kinds of ads, and all kinds of “values” that say how good it is to have these things or those things, or how having much money will make you happy. Those in control currently are as much conditioned as the average worker. Humans are greatly affected by the environment, and making assumptions about a core human nature form our current society gives a false indicator of what we really can be like. If anything human nature is adaptive, we got a remarkable ability to adapt to nearly anything. If we really want to change things in society, we can “cure” us by actually giving our kids a good education. Not just specialization and forced memorization as we do now, but a proper education. Then we need to have a long think about what is actually important in our lives, and combined with basic human needs derive a set of values to base our society on. These things will be a great start for a “cure”. And it is possible.
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
#37 - 2012-03-06 11:15:16 UTC
Meh my van runs off gas, can get 230miles with £40 lol.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#38 - 2012-03-06 12:50:39 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:

Also, if you try and elbow me while I'm cycling around at high speed to keep up with traffic, you'll earn a boot to the ribs. One ******* who did that knocked me into a wall headfirst, and has caused nearly a grand in dental work to fix my teeth due to the impact.


If I lept into a cage of hungry lions, I'd expect to get eaten.

You made a decision to ride on the pavement, not me.

Pavements are for pedestrians, the road is for cyclists.

Then again, if you ever want to have an animated conversation with someone, ask a cab driver to tell you their opinion of cyclists...thankfully, you'll already be sitting down, because it'll be a while.

AK

This space for rent.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#39 - 2012-03-06 13:08:42 UTC
95E10 1.657 €/L
98E 1.659 €/L
Di 1.527 €/L

Funny part is that 95E10 was supposed to be cheap (less benzine in it) but doesn't sure look like that in the price tag.
also local dealers here are hard and fast to ramp up the prices in the lightest excuse claiming to "follow the fuel prises" but from reason it doesn't apply when prises by barrel are going low, I wonder why ... Roll

and it used to be 1.3€ only a year ago.

for reference:
U.S. gal to liters Conversion Table:
1 = 3.785 L
2 = 7.571
3 = 11.356
4 = 15.142
5 = 18.927,
10 = 37.854 L
20 = 75.708
50 = 189.271
100 = 378.541
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-03-06 13:32:45 UTC
Quote:
First of all, I want to get rid of money because we quite clearly can create abundance with new technology. As such we can provide all the basics to all humans easily. Why does this suddenly imply a central government dictating stuff to everyone? No money and abundance will liberate humanity and make us truly free, not bind us down. This part will come sooner or later anyways though; it is only a question of time before 3D printers become advanced enough. I only want it to come sooner so that we can start working out the kinks in our society sooner, and make a better society for me, and for my family and friends. And with abundance, the ‘free exchange of goods and services’ will be a thing of the past, since we can get all we need anywhere for free. Is not that the point of technology after all, to free us from work? Once abundance is attained, we really should remove the government as it is now as well, no need for it in its current implementations.

Secondly, we are all grown up in this monetary system, and as such we are conditioned by it. Some more than others. We grow up with all kinds of ads, and all kinds of “values” that say how good it is to have these things or those things, or how having much money will make you happy. Those in control currently are as much conditioned as the average worker. Humans are greatly affected by the environment, and making assumptions about a core human nature form our current society gives a false indicator of what we really can be like. If anything human nature is adaptive, we got a remarkable ability to adapt to nearly anything. If we really want to change things in society, we can “cure” us by actually giving our kids a good education. Not just specialization and forced memorization as we do now, but a proper education. Then we need to have a long think about what is actually important in our lives, and combined with basic human needs derive a set of values to base our society on. These things will be a great start for a “cure”. And it is possible.


yikes...

Ok, not sure why you are so focused on ‘money’. Money is only what we all use to attribute value to something. Goods and services have different perceived values to all of us. Money allows us to show this differentiation quickly and easily. Money is the ‘loob’ that makes the economy work efficiently.
It is just a tool. People will always attribute varying levels of value to different things no matter if money is the tool that is used to do this or not.
Ie: The perceibed value of the hoover dam is much higher than that of a plate of chicken wings. ‘Getting rid of money’ will do nothing to change that other than make the valuation more arbitrary. So now the Hoover Dam is worth 12 billion plates of chicken wings. Well, how much is a plate of chicken wings worth? Oh yeah, a plate of chicken wings is worth two egg McMuffins…

Now do you see how ridiculous you wanting to get rid of money is? It will do nothing good and not change a damn thing about the perceived value of things except to make it more arbitrary and unfair.

And (lol) printers are already good enough to replace money (cash) we are all going cashless eventually anyways so counterfeiting will become less and less of a problem as time goes by. So am I to assume that by you wanting to get rid of ‘money’ you just mean physical cash? If so, that will only make matters worse.

Ok, this has got to be a troll. ‘The free exchange of goods and services’ does not mean free in the sense of it doesn’t cost you anything! Lol it means that it is relatively ‘free’ in the sense of being unencumbered or unnecessarily burdened by a third party to the transaction.. Nothing in life comes without cost.

Lol the rest of your post is is pure drivel. My values are fine thank you very much. I don’t need you or anyone else telling me that I need to change my values. How about you change yours if you like and leave me out of it?
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