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Black Ops 2.0
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#21 - 2012-03-02 18:38:41 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
Wait so its chance based as to if the whole thing just fails ? Because that'll make it totally useless. Chance based pretty much means 'Will fail when it is least convenient' and people just will not use it.

If its not and the only risk is from DCs, then that equates to that same thing, random chance that is totally outside of the players control.

That is the problem with all of this. You just cannot balance something with random chance because this is not that kind of game. Imagine if Titan bridges had a 90% chance of working.

Even that small percentage of randomness can translate into hilarious **** ups. It SHOULD mean that 1 guy in 10 doesn't come through. In practice it means that one time in however many, half of your fleet doesn't appear and gets hilarious raped. And that doesn't make it balanced, it makes it a liability.

Cloaking bubbles ALWAYS lead to this kind of problem. They are either overpowered to a pretty large degree or they aren't powerful enough to make using them worthwhile over cloaks.

I am particularly concerned at how easily these would break scouting. Its easy enough to trap people these days with capitals all over the place and bridges and such, adding another way to do it just sucks really. And that's all you could use these for really.
Having risks is an element of any game. Risk management keeps them from being paralyzing obstacles to use.
It could simply be that they create an exception for people going link dead in relation to this cloaking effect. They no longer count as an object capable of decloaking a cloaked vessel after dropping, and they are still cloaked in fleet before dropping.

Game balance covers that aspect.

Maybe they will decide only those in the same squad can benefit from this cloak. Again resolved by balance.

Perhaps they will decide it is most balanced, if nothing can be decloaked by proximity except the BLOPs itself, at which point all ships become decloaked when it is cloak pops.

Maybe they will decide that any foreign uncloaked object within 2km of the field is enough to pop it. This would make it something that needed to be placed a minimum distance from any other objects, and having a ship join it becomes a cause to restart the whole process over.

There are a great variety of things, like these, that can be tweaked to make sure it is not overpowered, but still useful enough to be another good reason to train for these ships.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#22 - 2012-03-02 23:12:53 UTC
What benefit does this give, at all?

You require all ships be cov ops ships with cloaks fitted, why not simply use your own cloak instead, what point is there in having a field that essentially just penalizes you for being in it?

A group of cloaked ships do not decloak each other, how is this different from a cloak field? What purpose will this serve? What role will this fulfill? BO ships fit a cloak as it is, as do all cov ops ships.

If you want to make BO more viable, the answer is simple, give them the cov ops cloak.

The ability to move/warp cloaked is a giant advantage to maneuverability. For ships that cost almost as much as a carrier, there is no excuse for them to be so handicapped and fragile.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-03-02 23:18:26 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
What benefit does this give, at all?

You require all ships be cov ops ships with cloaks fitted, why not simply use your own cloak instead, what point is there in having a field that essentially just penalizes you for being in it?

A group of cloaked ships do not decloak each other, how is this different from a cloak field? What purpose will this serve? What role will this fulfill? BO ships fit a cloak as it is, as do all cov ops ships.

If you want to make BO more viable, the answer is simple, give them the cov ops cloak.

The ability to move/warp cloaked is a giant advantage to maneuverability. For ships that cost almost as much as a carrier, there is no excuse for them to be so handicapped and fragile.

I think you completely missed the point...but yes Black Ops should be able to use Cov Ops cloaks.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#24 - 2012-03-02 23:25:26 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
What benefit does this give, at all?

You require all ships be cov ops ships with cloaks fitted, why not simply use your own cloak instead, what point is there in having a field that essentially just penalizes you for being in it?

A group of cloaked ships do not decloak each other, how is this different from a cloak field? What purpose will this serve? What role will this fulfill? BO ships fit a cloak as it is, as do all cov ops ships.

If you want to make BO more viable, the answer is simple, give them the cov ops cloak.

The ability to move/warp cloaked is a giant advantage to maneuverability. For ships that cost almost as much as a carrier, there is no excuse for them to be so handicapped and fragile.

Yeah... you kinda missed that detail I think...

This feature, is specifically NOT for the ships that can use the covert bridge function. It's for the ships which cannot cloak already, to be specific.

I think the idea is to make the Black Ops useful to regular fleets, and probably give them a reason to come out and play closer to the action.

Still, at 600mil, I would be pretty careful.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#25 - 2012-03-03 08:49:18 UTC
I'd still like to see Black Ops bridge range bonus in the Black Ops skill. A JD cal bonus per level so 5.0 with JD Cal 5, BO 1. 7 AU cap. Right now if you need to bridge raw moon to a reactor you are set but if you want to use them for anything esle, they don't have the range.

I'd also like to see them add a high slot, Black Ops only, "grouping collider". In a nutshell, something that has a 10 minute time and gave the weapons when grouped, a 625% (125% per BO level) bonus to a single volley. A 'baby doomsday'.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#26 - 2012-03-03 11:01:45 UTC
Kalstrams wrote:
+1

I wil give my 5 cents too. The field should not cloak capital and super-capital ships.


Why shouldn't this cloak Capital ships?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#27 - 2012-03-04 00:55:14 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Kalstrams wrote:
+1

I wil give my 5 cents too. The field should not cloak capital and super-capital ships.


Why shouldn't this cloak Capital ships?

Obviously the Black Ops cannot move the cap ship, so I am unclear why we would avoid them being cloaked.

They only cloak, from my understanding, between conflicts. Given the level of preparation involved either way, noone is losing killmails this way, they would have simply left or logged out into an alt otherwise.

If anything, I think this creates more opportunities to catch them than opponents would otherwise have.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-03-04 08:19:12 UTC
Another good idea, and I know that it's been suggested before but this time it has gotten good feedback. My 2 isk is that it can only cloak a certain amount of ships and nothing over the size of a Battleship. I would say 2 ships cloaked for every level in 'Cloaking Sphere' which should be a 10x skill after you get cloaking 5. Yes I know this would add more of a base level to the already skill intensive Black Ops but something this powerful shouldn't be easy to get.

Also as a side note I would love to see an additional feature to the Black Ops, this would be amazing, I also like my idea of having BOPS produce limited Deadspace pockets.

+1

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#29 - 2012-03-05 15:01:23 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Another good idea, and I know that it's been suggested before but this time it has gotten good feedback. My 2 isk is that it can only cloak a certain amount of ships and nothing over the size of a Battleship. I would say 2 ships cloaked for every level in 'Cloaking Sphere' which should be a 10x skill after you get cloaking 5. Yes I know this would add more of a base level to the already skill intensive Black Ops but something this powerful shouldn't be easy to get.

Also as a side note I would love to see an additional feature to the Black Ops, this would be amazing, I also like my idea of having BOPS produce limited Deadspace pockets.

+1

What might be a viable option, is to have the class of ships capable of being cloaked tied into the skill for the black ops pilot.

Maybe something like Mass Cloaking, with higher levels able to cloak bigger things

Level 1 as frigates and destroyers
Level 2 cruisers
Level 3 battle cruisers
Level 4 battleships
Level 5 Capitals

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#30 - 2012-03-12 15:23:29 UTC
ThatsGayOrange
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-03-12 17:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ThatsGayOrange
I like this Idea combined with your other one. +1

I don't see a sec restriction on this. I'm okay with this. "Nothing on gate, jump the freighter through, ...................... FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU"

Addendum: perhaps we literally combine the two ideas in your other threads, the cloak field also removes the inhabitants from local.

things in field shouldn't decloak by proximity, just like the recent cov ops changes. I think the basic idea in EvE is that coming up with a good plan is the hard part, executing it, is the easy part, provided that it isn't mutually exclusive with other people's well executed plans. Cloakies decloaking Cloakies frustrates this.

Anti-Cloak probes are also, cloaked. You won't need the domino decloak cascade when your fleet warps into their cloak bubble and drifts several K through it
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#32 - 2012-03-12 18:27:04 UTC
I personally don't think local chat should be involved with cloaks on any level.

If you are cloaked, by the field I described here, or by your ship's discrete hardware, you should not show up in local, and I think you should not see it either.

It should work both ways, I think.

Now, probing should still be available, along with your D-Scan.

Obviously you should still see anything on grid with you.

This makes local an all or nothing, not just a one way mirror.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#33 - 2012-04-20 17:19:45 UTC
Bumped for reference, I am unable to copy the URL for some reason into the new thread

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#34 - 2012-05-08 16:26:03 UTC
That link thing might indicate some kind of problem here.

Bumped for reference.

Again.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-05-08 17:57:16 UTC
As I said in the other post about this idea, I think a good way to balance it is to make the total amount of signature radius able to be cloaked dependent on the skill of the BO pilot. So at level 1 he can cloak like maybe a BC or two and some smaller ships, at level 5, he could cloak like 4 or 5 BS's with some smaller supporting ships. Scaling this would depend on testing of course, but that would be better than an arbitrary ship class/count limit.

Also, all the ships should get all of the negatives of being cloaked (slower, sig resolutions, target delay etc) and it goes away in the same manner as it does if they had fitted a cloak and deactivated it. This way your tornado blob takes a minute to lock anything down, your interceptors can't just pop out and tackle something, and Cap ships wouldn't fit.

I like the idea a lot and I think it should be done and tested at least. If it is failsauce on the test server then it can be abandoned, but I think it would make the BO's a great addition to small gangs and big fleets alike and the kill boards would be littered with them...which is a good thing I am sure.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#36 - 2012-05-08 18:16:12 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
As I said in the other post about this idea, I think a good way to balance it is to make the total amount of signature radius able to be cloaked dependent on the skill of the BO pilot. So at level 1 he can cloak like maybe a BC or two and some smaller ships, at level 5, he could cloak like 4 or 5 BS's with some smaller supporting ships. Scaling this would depend on testing of course, but that would be better than an arbitrary ship class/count limit.

Similar effect already suggested, making the cloaking effect limited in two ways:
The BLOPs pilot needed a high enough skill to cover the class of ships in question.
The ships needed to fit inside the radius.

Your idea could be useful if it is determined that only a very limited number of ships should be able to share the cloak.

Loius Woo wrote:
Also, all the ships should get all of the negatives of being cloaked (slower, sig resolutions, target delay etc) and it goes away in the same manner as it does if they had fitted a cloak and deactivated it. This way your tornado blob takes a minute to lock anything down, your interceptors can't just pop out and tackle something, and Cap ships wouldn't fit.

The penalties you mentioned were already specified and in place. I know, it's a long read, but a lot of details like this got covered after the original post went up.

Cap ships: Ok, the thing to remember about these, is that cap pilots do not deliberately take risks in most cases. (Yes, everyone has heard of some fool who got hot dropped while ratting, they are not who we mean here)
If the cap ship isn't covered, the pilot often either has a cloak mounted independently, or simply logs out to avoid trouble. You will actually see more kill mails on cap ships if they have less control over their own protection, since they will be taking chances for convenience they may not have otherwise considered.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-05-08 19:11:44 UTC
NOOOOOOOOOOO.

Go away, cloakbubble baddies.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-05-08 19:23:41 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOO.

Go away, cloakbubble baddies.


Same as the other thread that you graced with your comment.

Thank you for your insightful and succinct logical rebuttal to the idea. You have brought so much to the discussion that I am speechless.

Here, take my internets.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-05-08 19:28:09 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOO.

Go away, cloakbubble baddies.


Same as the other thread that you graced with your comment.

Thank you for your insightful and succinct logical rebuttal to the idea. You have brought so much to the discussion that I am speechless.

Here, take my internets.



You're ********, there was a gigantic thread about this a month or so ago where this point was argued REPEATEDLY and at great length. People should use the search button before they repost THE SAME **** IDEAS in multiple threads on the same day.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-05-08 19:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
Ganthrithor wrote:
Loius Woo wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOO.

Go away, cloakbubble baddies.


Same as the other thread that you graced with your comment.

Thank you for your insightful and succinct logical rebuttal to the idea. You have brought so much to the discussion that I am speechless.

Here, take my internets.



You're ********, there was a gigantic thread about this a month or so ago where this point was argued REPEATEDLY and at great length. People should use the search button before they repost THE SAME **** IDEAS in multiple threads on the same day.


Got it, you don't like it, thanks for coming. Have a nice day.

Also, this thread is like a couple of months old, it was brought back after the other post today referenced it. So...your point=invalid.
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