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Shield Power relay
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Col Arran
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-09-21 22:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Col Arran
I find it interesting that this has not been noted before. There seems to be a "discrepancy" with the Shield Power relay modules.

The named meta 4 module uses less CPU than the Meta 5 Tech 2 module but suffers no penalty. Both give a 24% shield recharge bonus, both have a -35% capacitor recharge penalty, but the meta 4 uses 16tf and the Tech II Meta 5 uses 20tf.

Now I know that since its a tech 2 your supposed to have Energy-grid upgrades to at least IV making the CPU difference negligible, but this just doesn't make sense. By spending just a few 100k more ISK on the named meta 4 you can get the same performance as the Tech 2 mod without any penalty.

It may not be my place but I'd recommend either increasing the cap recharge penalty or making the shield recharge rate lower to balance the low CPU usage.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2 - 2011-09-21 23:03:55 UTC
There are lots of Meta 4 modules that have better stats than the T2 version. That's no reason to nerf them.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

1-Up Mushroom
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-09-21 23:04:31 UTC
Meta 4 costs more, therefore it has better bonuses, simple as that
5 Days In A Week... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Hemispheres On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!
Goose99
#4 - 2011-09-21 23:05:32 UTC
Col Arran wrote:
I find it interesting that this has not been noted before. There seems to be a "discrepancy" with the Shield Power relay modules.

The named meta 4 module uses less CPU than the Meta 5 Tech 2 module but suffers no penalty. Both give a 24% shield recharge bonus, both have a -35% capacitor recharge penalty, but the meta 4 uses 16tf and the Tech II Meta 5 uses 20tf.

Now I know that since its a tech 2 your supposed to have Energy-grid upgrades to at least IV making the CPU difference negligible, but this just doesn't make sense. By spending just a few 100k more ISK on the named meta 4 you can get the same performance as the Tech 2 mod without any penalty.

It may not be my place but I'd recommend either increasing the cap recharge penalty or making the shield recharge rate lower to balance the low CPU usage.


A lot of other t2 modules are like that, offering no benefits over meta 4, ever since t2 were introduced. And no, gimping meta 4 isn't the way to go. They were there first, why should they be gimped all of a sudden for the sole purpose of making t2 look good in comparison?
Sugilite
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-09-21 23:06:39 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
There are lots of Meta 4 modules that have better stats than the T2 version. That's no reason to nerf them.



This. There are all sorts of different ways that the meta 1-4 compare to the t2 mods. No errors, no problem, just variance.
Goose99
#6 - 2011-09-21 23:40:04 UTC
What they should fix is meta 5 t2 guns being better than meta 6+ faction/officer guns.P
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-09-21 23:45:45 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
What they should fix is meta 5 t2 guns being better than meta 6+ faction/officer guns.P


Faction - No (actually, faction are better than t2 if you have spec 3 or less and require less sp to use, much less fit or cap usage). There are many faction modules that are worse than t2 in every way other than fitting and skill requirements.
Officer - Fix by making them t2 (so they can use the ammo and receive weapon specialization bonuses). People w/o t2 skills should not be using officer guns anyway.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-21 23:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
1-Up Mushroom wrote:
Meta 4 costs more, therefore it has better bonuses, simple as that

Meta 4 cost more because of the better fitting costs in most situations, not the other way around. Having to be found n drops vs being able to be invented endlessly would also favor meta 4 being more expensive.
Goose99 wrote:
What they should fix is meta 5 t2 guns being better than meta 6+ faction/officer guns.P

Simple, get rid of the spec skills as they have the same base stats as meta 4 but are harder to fit.
Col Arran
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-09-22 01:08:16 UTC
1-Up Mushroom wrote:
Meta 4 costs more, therefore it has better bonuses, simple as that


Ummm just no, so if a Dell costs more than an Asus or an Acer or any other computer for that matter it must be better? That kind of thinking is just broken.

Goose99 wrote:
A lot of other t2 modules are like that, offering no benefits over meta 4, ever since t2 were introduced. And no, gimping meta 4 isn't the way to go. They were there first, why should they be gimped all of a sudden for the sole purpose of making t2 look good in comparison?


Then buff the Tech II. Meta 4 require maybe 2 hours of training to use, Tech II mods often require days of training to use. There is a reason they're a meta 5 and not a meta 4.

Yeah I know some say "Its better because it costs more" no actually it costs more because its better. If the Tech II mods were better the cost would increase just take a look at the Large Shield Extender II it costs more that the Regolith, why? Because its better.


TL:DR Something isn't better if it costs more, it costs more because its better (just think on this statement for awhile and it'll make sense, or take a logic class). Why does something that takes an hour to train give less use that something that takes days to train?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2011-09-22 01:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Col Arran wrote:
I find it interesting that this has not been noted before.


Trust me, ithas. And just you wait until you look at armor plates.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-09-22 01:52:26 UTC
The most simple difference is because Meta 4 items are dropped as loot from NPCs, and Meta 5 T2 items are manufactured by playas

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Sugilite
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-09-22 02:02:50 UTC
Col Arran wrote:


Then buff the Tech II. Meta 4 require maybe 2 hours of training to use, Tech II mods often require days of training to use. There is a reason they're a meta 5 and not a meta 4.

Yeah I know some say "Its better because it costs more" no actually it costs more because its better. If the Tech II mods were better the cost would increase just take a look at the Large Shield Extender II it costs more that the Regolith, why? Because its better.


TL:DR Something isn't better if it costs more, it costs more because its better (just think on this statement for awhile and it'll make sense, or take a logic class). Why does something that takes an hour to train give less use that something that takes days to train?


It costs more because of supply and demand. t2 can be made by players, meta4 must be dropped and added to the market by mission runners. So the way it's supplied is different, and the demand is different, because as I mentioned meta level items compare to the t2 stuff in many different ways.

For some items meta 0->5 is a gradual increase in fitting requirements, for others 0->4 is a gradual decrease then spiking back up at t2. For some items the meta 1 or meta 4 might be the easiest to fit. For some items the meta4 is the same/better/worse than t2 but may also have same/more/less fitting requirements. This is how it works. So you may have more demand for meta4 medium extenders because people can actually fit them onto popular frigate loadouts. Differences in supply and in demand means different prices, get it?

PS, do you realize you can get meta 14 items that you can fit before you can even fit t2?
Cayrenne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-09-22 03:12:31 UTC
Col Arran wrote:

Yeah I know some say "Its better because it costs more" no actually it costs more because its better. If the Tech II mods were better the cost would increase just take a look at the Large Shield Extender II it costs more that the Regolith, why? Because its better.


TL:DR Something isn't better if it costs more, it costs more because its better (just think on this statement for awhile and it'll make sense, or take a logic class). Why does something that takes an hour to train give less use that something that takes days to train?


The price discrepancy between meta 4 and T2 modules are governed more by the rarity of their supply rather than the performance difference of the modules themselves.

Case in point, look up the price of "Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I" which is the meta 4 version of Focused Medium Pulse Laser item, and compare it with the T2 version.
Another case in point, meta 4 neuts have the same performance as T2 neuts while having lighter fitting, meaning that performance-wise, it is always better to use meta 4 over T2 neuts. Yet, only at the medium neut level that the meta 4 neut is priced significantly higher than the T2 version. Especially at large neut level, the price of meta 4 neut is significantly below the T2 version while being better at the same time. So no, an item's performance does not solely determine their market price.
Col Arran
Doomheim
#14 - 2011-09-22 03:45:03 UTC
I was going to post a rebuttal but then I realized this is simply a game that isn't real. The devs can do whatever they want I guess, well have fun all.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#15 - 2011-09-22 05:29:49 UTC
Col Arran wrote:
Why does something that takes an hour to train give less use that something that takes days to train?
Because convenience comes at a cost.
Wa'roun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-09-22 07:38:29 UTC
Unfortunately Eve Online doesn't use other MMOG's loot rules.

For example with EverQuest/EQ II, if it drops from a difficult group mob, it will be worth more (and be better )than something found off a orc pawn near Freeport.

If it drops from a raid mob, it will be worth more (and be better than) anything else below it.

Mastercrafted items in EQ II are better than NPC city bought or handcrafted player made.

CCP needs to just fix the tags or up stats on/ for some mods, turning them from NPC dropped M4 to T2 or the other way around.

I find it amazing how stuff like this goes on for years with CCP but if it was EQ / EQ II SoE it would have been fixed before CCP ever got around to it.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#17 - 2011-09-22 10:27:18 UTC
Wa'roun wrote:
Unfortunately Eve Online doesn't use other MMOG's loot rules.

For example with EverQuest/EQ II, if it drops from a difficult group mob, it will be worth more (and be better )than something found off a orc pawn near Freeport.

If it drops from a raid mob, it will be worth more (and be better than) anything else below it.

Mastercrafted items in EQ II are better than NPC city bought or handcrafted player made.

CCP needs to just fix the tags or up stats on/ for some mods, turning them from NPC dropped M4 to T2 or the other way around.

I find it amazing how stuff like this goes on for years with CCP but if it was EQ / EQ II SoE it would have been fixed before CCP ever got around to it.


Its working as intended.

This has NOTHING to do with orcs.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#18 - 2011-09-23 00:39:53 UTC
Wa'roun wrote:
fortunately Eve Online doesn't use other MMOG's loot rules.
Fixed.
Quote:
I find it amazing how stuff like this goes on for years with CCP but if it was EQ / EQ II SoE it would have been fixed before CCP ever got around to it.
Seeing as how there's nothing to fix, it's not all that amazing that they haven't don anything about it (well, unless you want to be a bitter cynic about it and call it amazing that they haven't broken it in the same period of time).
Goose99
#19 - 2011-09-23 00:59:40 UTC
They should do something about it...

Eve had a neat hierarchy of item performance before t2 were introduced. From meta 1 to meta 13, performance rise sturdily all the way. T2, which are all meta 5, had stats all over the place. Many are worse than meta 4, some better than meta 10 officer mods. Base material cost of t2 are never in line with relative performance, creating bottlenecks in materials.

Why can't they fit t2 into the existing hierarchy? Why do all t2 have to be meta 5? Even if they want varying performance, it would've been a easy matter of assigning them different meta levels, with material amount reflecting it, and fit the mods into its niche in the 1-13 meta hierarchy, reflective of both its performance and cost.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#20 - 2011-09-23 01:13:29 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Why can't they fit t2 into the existing hierarchy?
Because they're not in the same hierarchy.

Or, rather, there are two hierarchies: T1 – T3 (aka manufacturable stuff) and Meta 1–4, 6-14 (aka drops).

In a sense, you're right: they shouldn't be Meta 5. They shouldn't have any meta level at all because they're not in that class of items. T2 fit perfectly into the hierarchy they're actually in: more capable, more difficult to manufacture, cost more than T1, but less so than T3. They don't follow the same rules as Meta items because the meta items are not just subject to some (supposed… but not entirely consistent) increase in quality, but also to strict limitations (and completely different mechanics) of supply.

The market forces for the two are not the same, so there is pretty much no way to make the two categories follow the same “progression” when it comes to cost/benefit/performace.
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