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[CSM] The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections

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Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-03-02 07:06:31 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Red Templar wrote:
There is no such thing as wasted votes. Not in RL, not in EVE.

This is demonstrably incorrect. For example, every vote The Mittani gets in excess of the number needed for him to become chairman (his stated goal) is a wasted vote; it could have been used to elect other candidates with similar views.

In the last election, The Mittani received 1552 overvotes. These would have been enough to put another candidate onto the CSM. Ntrails pointed this out while I was composing this reply; great minds think alike.

Similarly, about 30% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not get elected. If those had been transferred in some way, the council would have been more representative of the wishes of the voters.

Allow me to disagree.
If there was a situation where we would be able to monitor amount of votes, and had precise data how many votes candidate has, then that would be correct. But we dont know, we are not allowed to know these kind of things, and we should not be allowed to know this.
So how do you know if he has enough votes? Its only your guess. Based on the last year results. But this is not a last year. Your efforts as CSM 6 showed everyone that CSM has some real power and influence. Not the power to introduce some new features, but the power to influence decisions made by CCP, and thats good enough in the right hands.
So there is a lot more attention to elections this year, and i expect a lot more people to take part and cast their votes. And as a result, each candidate will need a lot more votes to pass.
And also in my opinion it gives much more weight to CSM candidate if he received more votes, and not just from his support group.

No system is perfect, thats true enough. But even in this broken system, i think people should vote for those they believe in, and not second/third choices. Otherwise these elections have no meaning.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-03-02 07:07:52 UTC
Victor Stillwater wrote:

I came across this post through a twitter announcement, and while I do think you mean well, this isn't really much of a voter's guide so much as it is a guide to gaming the CSM voting system so that specific people get to go to CCP-land and offer their input into the systems that define EVE.

The very nature of a voter's guide is that is an impartial listing of all candidates for particular positions, as well as their platforms and possibly their qualifications for being voted into office.

this Idea

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#83 - 2012-03-02 07:37:45 UTC
Raivi wrote:
Trebor, everything I've seen and heard about you suggests you're a very hard worker who deserves reelection. However this thread is a bit silly. No "voters guide" written by an active candidate can ever claim to be impartial. This is an example of pidgenholing candidates on a level nobody else (not even Mittens) has attempted.



You're right. No existing council member could document a voting guide in a completely neutral way. But you have to admire the skill of a guy who can guide the minds of the uninformed in a manner that at first glance appears to be impartial.
Taiwanistan
#84 - 2012-03-02 09:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Taiwanistan
lol wasting votes on issler
also csm 2 & 3 didn't do squat it was a joke, csm 4 brought real influence to the csm,

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#85 - 2012-03-02 10:43:43 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
LOL

A no-name mercifully placed me in Long Shots list while asking to vote for himself.

Dude, wanna accept my bet that I'll score more votes than you? Say, 100 mil. Is that ok for you? I'm perfectly fine with higher bets as well, I'm just not sure wheather you'd risk your money.

edit: oh, originally it was a 'comic relief' list. Nice! Blink


Well the comment of a "flaming cross of impartiality" by someone in your thread did make me laugh out loud.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Anne Tesla
Ice Fire Warriors
#86 - 2012-03-02 14:53:12 UTC
I'm voting for Hans. Hero of the Republic.
George Nada
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2012-03-02 15:15:06 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The current chairman of the CSM, The Mittani, is the classic bloc candidate. To him, you are either a Goon or a "pubbie". The Mittani has an extremely low opinion of pubbies -- and yet now he wants your vote!


This is some pretty libelous, sensationalist ****. Wow.

You would think that a mastermind spymaster who heads arguably the most powerful bloc in EVE is quite capable of leading the CSM to victory (Like he did this past year, calling CCP on their bullshit and ultimately resulting in more gameplay improvements since... what... 2008ish?) But nope, since he doesn't suck every **** and kiss every pubbie ass, he's a bad candidate. I see.

Think of it like you would a father or a ship's captain. You may not like him, but you follow him knowing that he knows what is the right thing to do. Merely voting for CSM candidates who "you like" will simply get you more of the past -- e.g. CSM 1-5.

As long as there is hot blonde icelandic poon to chase, i'm sure that mittens will continue to deliver a strong performance as chairman next year like he did this year.
Takezo Kensei
Session9
#88 - 2012-03-02 16:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Takezo Kensei
Wait... you're running yourself and still call this piece `The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections`? Hahaha. No conficts there right? Nope. Cool Like a boss.

You didn't even insert yourself in your `Proven Performers` list. Neh.

Nice of you to openly call the vote for some of the other contenders `a waste`. You really helped me decide whom to give my votes (hint: you're not getting any).

And while you're at it learn some deontological ethics (and manners - lol at trying to write an article for the independent voter while running for re-election yourself). At least have the brains to put someone else publish this trash piece, you're not doing yourself any favours.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#89 - 2012-03-02 17:06:49 UTC
Takezo Kensei wrote:
Wait... you're running yourself and still call this piece `The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections`? Hahaha. No conficts there right? Nope. Cool Like a boss.

You didn't even insert yourself in your `Proven Performers` list. Neh.

Nice of you to openly call the vote for some of the other contenders `a waste`. You really helped me decide whom to give my votes (hint: you're not getting any).

And while you're at it learn some deontological ethics (and manners - lol at trying to write an article for the independent voter while running for re-election yourself). At least have the brains to put someone else publish this trash piece, you're not doing yourself any favours.



If you can't really argue against the points he made then ignore them, and yell "well yeah but... but... he is biased!!!"

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Takezo Kensei
Session9
#90 - 2012-03-02 17:14:55 UTC
I don't need to argue his points, nor do I have any interest in reading them. Was enough that he's doing this stuff from a severely flawed position. Speaks volumes about one's character.

If you seriously have the vertical spine and respect your voters you will never resort to such bullshit when you run for (re)election.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#91 - 2012-03-02 17:34:19 UTC
George Nada wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The current chairman of the CSM, The Mittani, is the classic bloc candidate. To him, you are either a Goon or a "pubbie". The Mittani has an extremely low opinion of pubbies -- and yet now he wants your vote!


This is some pretty libelous, sensationalist ****. Wow.

You would think that a mastermind spymaster who heads arguably the most powerful bloc in EVE is quite capable of leading the CSM to victory .


Yes indeed if he is good at a computer game he must be good at something that requires real life skills.

George Nada wrote:

Think of it like you would a father or a ship's captain. You may not like him, but you follow him knowing that he knows what is the right thing to do. .


Are you really this obsequious? Obey mittens command to vote for him like he is your captain or your father? I puked a little in my mouth.

George Nada wrote:

Merely voting for CSM candidates who "you like" will simply get you more of the past -- e.g. CSM 1-5.

As long as there is hot blonde icelandic poon to chase, i'm sure that mittens will continue to deliver a strong performance as chairman next year like he did this year.


Great success at what?

His first act after being elected was to defend the horribly stupid path ccp was taking with incarna. Read his "In defense of incarna" if you doubt it.

He ran on a platform that said he would not push for blasters or assembly hall issues to be implemented and laughed at anyone who said they would be able to do that. Well we got our blaster fix. He specifically said csm shouldn't be pushing for these assembly hall changes we see were implemented in crucible. So he was wrong again. I love that he is trying to take credit for it now.

Even if you are in null sec I don't see what he has to offer. He admits its broken yet he is offering nothing specific as to how the capture mechanics should be fixed.

Mittani on what should happen in null sec:
"However, I don't have any specific ideas about capture mechanics, nor did CCP bring up any at the summit" So nothing really changed did it? Its still broken. Another year of mittani at the head is likely to bring another year of nothing happening in null sec and no changes happening that will improve the game there.

Face it he is running because lots of mindless drones like you will vote for him even though he really tells us nothing about what he would like changed in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-03-02 20:45:42 UTC
George Nada wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The Mittani has an extremely low opinion of pubbies -- and yet now he wants your vote!

This is some pretty libelous, sensationalist ****. Wow.

Really? The Mittani has been very forthright with respect to his opinions about "pubbies". A casual EVE-Search is all you need to do.

Quote:
But nope, since he doesn't suck every **** and kiss every pubbie ass, he's a bad candidate. I see.

Did I say that? Not at all. The Mittani is a hard-working member of the CSM, and deserves to be re-elected. All I said was that he doesn't need non-goon votes to get re-elected, and doesn't care much for the opinions of non-goons, so there was no reason why they should vote for him -- their vote could be better spent elsewhere.

Quote:
As long as there is hot blonde icelandic poon to chase, i'm sure that mittens will continue to deliver a strong performance

I hate to break it to you, but Mrs. Mittens makes him put his manhood in a blind trust before leaving for Iceland.

Takezo Kensei wrote:
At least have the brains to put someone else publish this trash piece, you're not doing yourself any favours.

Which would you prefer, someone who openly states his opinions, even if they might be unpopular (or cost him votes), or someone who hides behind alts and surrogates? Surely not the latter.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Franklin D Roosevelt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-03-02 20:50:28 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
George Nada wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The Mittani has an extremely low opinion of pubbies -- and yet now he wants your vote!

This is some pretty libelous, sensationalist ****. Wow.

Really? The Mittani has been very forthright with respect to his opinions about "pubbies". A casual EVE-Search is all you need to do.

Quote:
But nope, since he doesn't suck every **** and kiss every pubbie ass, he's a bad candidate. I see.

Did I say that? Not at all. The Mittani is a hard-working member of the CSM, and deserves to be re-elected. All I said was that he doesn't need non-goon votes to get re-elected, and doesn't care much for the opinions of non-goons, so there was no reason why they should vote for him -- their vote could be better spent elsewhere.

Quote:
As long as there is hot blonde icelandic poon to chase, i'm sure that mittens will continue to deliver a strong performance

I hate to break it to you, but Mrs. Mittens makes him put his manhood in a blind trust before leaving for Iceland.


Which would you prefer, someone who openly states his opinions, even if they might be unpopular (or cost him votes), or someone who hides behind alts and surrogates? Surely not the latter.

Trebor,

What is your opinion on the fact that The Mittani is best friends with many on the CCP development team? Do you think that it is a little odd that the current head of CCP security is the former CEO of goonfleet? What will you do to investigate the ties that The Mittani has to CCP outside of the game that may have an undue influence on the in game world? I think that there should be an investigation in to how many "goons" get checks cut by CCP. Will you be the man to do this? If you will you will get my vote even though you are an awful pubby.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-03-03 01:40:35 UTC
Franklin D Roosevelt wrote:
What is your opinion on the fact that The Mittani is best friends with many on the CCP development team? Do you think that it is a little odd that the current head of CCP security is the former CEO of goonfleet? What will you do to investigate the ties that The Mittani has to CCP outside of the game that may have an undue influence on the in game world? I think that there should be an investigation in to how many "goons" get checks cut by CCP. Will you be the man to do this?

There are many people on the CSM who are friends with devs. Rumor has it that one of the current members of the CSM is actually a former dev.

If you have evidence that a CCP dev (or a member of the CSM) is behaving improperly, there are established channels to address this. I would strongly urge you to use them.

Quote:
If you will you will get my vote even though you are an awful pubby.

I doubt I'll get your vote, but I did appreciate the bump! Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2012-03-03 02:12:04 UTC
Taiwanistan wrote:
csm 4 brought real influence to the csm,

Hells yeah we did.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Taiwanistan
#96 - 2012-03-03 02:21:19 UTC
lol npc duder calling Trebor a pubbie

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Varr Dorn
Blue Flame Ore Excavations
#97 - 2012-03-03 02:54:50 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Red Templar wrote:
There is no such thing as wasted votes. Not in RL, not in EVE.

This is demonstrably incorrect. For example, every vote The Mittani gets in excess of the number needed for him to become chairman (his stated goal) is a wasted vote; it could have been used to elect other candidates with similar views.

In the last election, The Mittani received 1552 overvotes. These would have been enough to put another candidate onto the CSM. Ntrails pointed this out while I was composing this reply; great minds think alike.

Similarly, about 30% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not get elected. If those had been transferred in some way, the council would have been more representative of the wishes of the voters.

This is not demonstrably incorrect. It simply depends on your point of view. My point of view dictates that my vote demonstrates my opinion. If I want to demonstrate, for instance, support for the Mittani's views, I vote for the Mittani. It won't make him any more powerful in the CSM (it all depends on how they work, as you said), but it does demonstrate to CCP where my priorities are. For the record, I am an 'independent'/undecided right now.
Quote:

Quote:
Players should vote for who they like and who they believe in, nothing else.

The fact that such a strategy amplifies the voting power of organized blocs should be obvious to everyone. The sad fact of the matter is that the current voting system forces people to vote tactically.

I would also point out that I am on record as being in favor of a system that does not require tactical voting -- that permits people to vote for who they believe in. This is despite the fact that it may well reduce my vote total, since under such a system, I would not be the beneficiary of tactical votes.

It does not amplify the voting power of organized blocs. According to you, the organized bloc candidates are fairly certain to be elected. So the vote changes nothing of the results, except expressing one's opinion. As you said, it doesn't matter if they are Seat 1 or Seat 7. In fact, if we were to take your suggestion of voting for a similarly minded candidate rather than a favored contender, we are simply doubling the voting blocs power.
I.E. If someone decides they don't want to waste a Vote on Mittens, but they like his views. So every extra vote goes to a candidate with similar views. How is the CSM now more representative of the playerbase? Now we just have Mittens +clone...

Also, as far as 'not having a chance at winning' or however you phrased it... Everyone that is up for election has a chance at winning. If someone decides not to vote for a 'long shot' based on that..of course they won't be elected! they didn't get any votes!
If, however, you vote based on your personal beliefs/opinions...your candidate may not win, but your views have been made known to the community (and more importantly to CCP). And if you're lucky, you might get a lot of others voting with you because they agree (even if they were not vocal about agreeing with it, or the opinion is not popular)

Vote as you please.
Josef Djugashvilis
#98 - 2012-03-03 09:43:52 UTC
Red Templar wrote:
It would be a nice guide if it was void of personal agenda leaking from every paragraph.You are a true politician Trebor. And i dont mean it in a nice way.

And i strongly disagree that votes for popular candidates that have bloc support are wasted votes. There is no such thing as wasted votes. Not in RL, not in EVE. Players should vote for who they like and who they believe in, nothing else.
And certainly not voting for their second/third person on the like list, just because they think that their primary candidate has enough votes already. Thats bullshit that can have a very big cost and harsh consequences.

Cheers.






Tactical voting...look it up

This is not a signature.
Delici Feelgood
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-03-03 10:32:05 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Red Templar wrote:
It would be a nice guide if it was void of personal agenda leaking from every paragraph.You are a true politician Trebor. And i dont mean it in a nice way.

And i strongly disagree that votes for popular candidates that have bloc support are wasted votes. There is no such thing as wasted votes. Not in RL, not in EVE. Players should vote for who they like and who they believe in, nothing else.
And certainly not voting for their second/third person on the like list, just because they think that their primary candidate has enough votes already. Thats bullshit that can have a very big cost and harsh consequences.

Cheers.






Tactical voting...look it up


He's a member of Goonswarm, if he hasn't finished basic training he may not have advanced past the Sesame street videos as yet. Blink
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#100 - 2012-03-03 11:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab
Takezo Kensei wrote:
Wait... you're running yourself and still call this piece `The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections`? Hahaha. No conficts there right? Nope. Cool Like a boss.

You didn't even insert yourself in your `Proven Performers` list. Neh.

Grammar; the difference between helping uncle Jack off the horse, and employing lots of lotion to pleasure the horse.

You're the guy who ended up with lots of horse sperm on you, when all you got asked was to help your uncle get down.

Nyan