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[Tweak] Balance Minmatar EWAR with the other races
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
#21 - 2012-03-02 02:16:09 UTC
You really can't compare a BC (especially one of the top two in the game currently) to a support frigate. It's just not a fair comparison.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-03-02 02:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Smiling Menace
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Smiling Menace wrote:
The only ships I see these days that actually use their Ewar bonuses are Minmatar ships.

Any fleet fights will have a ton of Huginns and Lachesis. Massive web and point range are all the in thing at the moment so I would say the Ewar bonuses for Minmatar are working fine. Wouldn't say the same for damps though.


I never mentioned the Huginn or Lachesis. My entire discussion about underpowered EWAR ships was focused on the Vigil and Hyena. Unless you have evidence that either of these is both popular and effective, you have no statement to make here.


Oh gee, let me see where I got that from....ah, yes

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Minmatar EWAR consists of target painters and stasis webifiers. Everyone uses them, but the Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them. Why, then, if they are so popular, do some of these specialized ships never get used?

I see some problems with Minmatar EWAR, and have brought some solutions; both to nerf the over powered and to buff the underpowered, to bring these EWAR ships into usage and to smooth out this particular field of EWAR.


So basically you are stating only EAF's aren't used for their intended roles?

If so, why not just ask that EAF's be fixed along with about 20 other threads in here asking for the same thing?

Any buffs to Ewar modules will benefit the Recon ships as well. They already work very well for their intended roles (except dampeners).

Buff EAF's, not the Ewar modules themselves, otherwise you will make Recon's very overpowered.

As already stated, adding more slots or rearranging the slot layout on EAF's will not help them in the slightest. They will still go down in flames as soon as anything locks them.

They either need a buff to range of the Ewar mods or a buff to their tank.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-03-02 09:07:22 UTC
mxzf wrote:
You really can't compare a BC (especially one of the top two in the game currently) to a support frigate. It's just not a fair comparison.


I can, because the point I am making is that they both have approximately the same EWAR impact, and the difference in what they add to the fleet other than EWAR is tremendously clear. That's the entire basis of my statement that the Vigil and Hyena need more mid slots, to make them better at EWAR than non-EWAR ships.

If the Drake had, say, three times the effective HP of the Hyena, it would last about as long as the Hyena in most engagements as its higher HP are perhaps just enough to counter its larger sig radius and slower speed. If it also fit about the same amount of firepower as the Hyena, and someone was arguing that since the Drake had a resistance bonus and missile bonus, that it should therefore have better tank and dps than a Hyena, would you actually try to dispute that?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-03-02 09:14:39 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
So basically you are stating only EAF's aren't used for their intended roles?

If so, why not just ask that EAF's be fixed along with about 20 other threads in here asking for the same thing?


This isn't a thread about Electronic Attack Frigates (though it has sort of turned into one), it was supposed to be a thread specifically about balancing Minmatar EWAR with other races' EWAR. In the case of the Hyena and Vigil, they differ from other EWAR frigates by bringing nothing to the field; they are essentially a redundancy and waste of a pilot. It is rather indisputable that all other EWAR frigates, for all their shortcomings, are better than non-EWAR ships at EWAR.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-03-02 09:18:13 UTC
mxzf wrote:
And you are getting intelligent feedback. Here in AH we're quite used to seeing tons of terribad ideas on a daily basis and are extremely experienced in poking holes in them and explaining why they make no sense at all. Don't misconstrue rebuttal with poor posting.


This is the only intelligent thing I've seen anyone else post yet on this whole thread:
mxzf wrote:
Don't make blanket statements about stuff 'never being used', because you'll always be wrong. It's one thing to say "ships x and y seem underused, and here's an idea that could increase their usefulness, what do you think?"; it's another to say "Min EWAR ships are never used and need a massive buff; I have seen the light and am called to share my wisdom with the forums". One gets you friendly responses, one gets you laughed at and little consideration.


You were right about that, I concede. Otherwise, everything else that has been said by you guys has been vapid at best, and dead wrong rather often.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jalmari Huitsikko
Avanto
Hole Control
#26 - 2012-03-02 14:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jalmari Huitsikko
minmatar ewar is finest.

also eaf's dont need more slots if you want to be better at ewar buy more expensive ship your problem is solved right away. they are throwaway crap you fly when you want to explode. don't ask them to be some kind of blueballing ships.

please move to features and ideas.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-03-02 15:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Smiling Menace
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Smiling Menace wrote:
So basically you are stating only EAF's aren't used for their intended roles?

If so, why not just ask that EAF's be fixed along with about 20 other threads in here asking for the same thing?


This isn't a thread about Electronic Attack Frigates (though it has sort of turned into one), it was supposed to be a thread specifically about balancing Minmatar EWAR with other races' EWAR. In the case of the Hyena and Vigil, they differ from other EWAR frigates by bringing nothing to the field; they are essentially a redundancy and waste of a pilot. It is rather indisputable that all other EWAR frigates, for all their shortcomings, are better than non-EWAR ships at EWAR.


You really need to make up your mind whether you want to buff Ewar mods or you are talking about buffing EAF's because so far you have veered one way then the other. Even your post above says buff Ewar but you then go on to EAF's again.

As as already been stated by a few people here, ALL of the EAF's are not used that much because they die very quickly so don't really help in any fleet. Minmatar aren't any different from Gallente, Caldari or Amarr EAF's in that respect. When was the last time you saw a Sentinal, Kitsune or Keres in any fleet actually doing it's intended role? I've never seen them used in any fleet since they appeared in game.

The T1 Ewar cruisers do a better job and actually live longer so why even bother with any EAF's?

You really really can't buff the Ewar modules themselves as you will make the Recon class ships stupidly overpowered. Huginns and Rapiers already do very very well at their intended roles. Why make them even better?

The only Ewar module that really needs fixed is dampeners.

I think you should reconsider what you are actually asking to be fixed, then come back and be very specific about your 'fix' and why it's needed, otherwise your idea will get shot down in flames again.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-03-02 15:26:06 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
mxzf wrote:
You really can't compare a BC (especially one of the top two in the game currently) to a support frigate. It's just not a fair comparison.


I can, because the point I am making is that they both have approximately the same EWAR impact, and the difference in what they add to the fleet other than EWAR is tremendously clear. That's the entire basis of my statement that the Vigil and Hyena need more mid slots, to make them better at EWAR than non-EWAR ships.

If the Drake had, say, three times the effective HP of the Hyena, it would last about as long as the Hyena in most engagements as its higher HP are perhaps just enough to counter its larger sig radius and slower speed. If it also fit about the same amount of firepower as the Hyena, and someone was arguing that since the Drake had a resistance bonus and missile bonus, that it should therefore have better tank and dps than a Hyena, would you actually try to dispute that?


Holy crap! I didn't see this one and I can't believe you actually compare a BC to an EAF!!! Seriously???

So your newest idea is give EAF's the tank of a BC?

You are missing a very important point here. The EAF's are frigates that have zero tank in comparison to a BC.

The BC will out live an EAF by a country mile so will seem to be better than a dedicated Ewar ship even without it's bonuses.

If the Drake had the same bonuses as the Kitsune does, then that would be the only ship to be flown in EVE!! Awesome tank, moderate firepower, stupid Ewar capabilities. Why fly anything else??

I now think you are just trolling. Well done, I fell for it. +1 internets to you Sir.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-03-02 17:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Smiling Menace wrote:

You really need to make up your mind whether you want to buff Ewar mods or you are talking about buffing EAF's because so far you have veered one way then the other. Even your post above says buff Ewar but you then go on to EAF's again.


Very much this. If you are not saying that the Huginn and Rapier are unused and need to be buffed, then why are you proposing buffing them via blanket changes to ewar mods?

If you are instead saying that the Hyena needs to be buffed, then you need to decide whether the Hyena is poor relative to other EAFs, or whether the EAFs as a class are poor. If it's the latter (which it is), than the solution is not a buff to the Hyena alone, instead you need to decide how to buff EAFs in general.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-03-02 19:32:17 UTC
I'm done here. No matter how many times I re-iterate the same rebuttals, you guys completely ignore what I say and make the same already-refuted arguments against it. I'm going to make a new post to get rid of this nonsense. I'm going to streamline the entire thing and take out all that juicy intelligent stuff I said about balancing, and instead feed you a ultra-concentrated short-form mass of text that will clarify exactly why you guys are wrong and I'm right, and moreover will reveal to you the idiocy of everything you have said here. I'm telling you this here so you know what to look for when you read it later.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-03-02 22:48:44 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm done here. No matter how many times I re-iterate the same rebuttals, you guys completely ignore what I say and make the same already-refuted arguments against it. I'm going to make a new post to get rid of this nonsense. I'm going to streamline the entire thing and take out all that juicy intelligent stuff I said about balancing, and instead feed you a ultra-concentrated short-form mass of text that will clarify exactly why you guys are wrong and I'm right, and moreover will reveal to you the idiocy of everything you have said here. I'm telling you this here so you know what to look for when you read it later.


Well make sure it is very clear what you want to fix and, more importantly, why.

This proposal was a mess from the start.
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