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solution to get outnumbered fleets into fight instead of running away
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John Eisenauge
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-03-02 10:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: John Eisenauge
the big issue in eve is that a fleet with 10 people runs away if the see a fleet with 15-20 people. (fleet

config similar). Same problem with two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.

fleet A: 10x400 (volley) = 4000 fleet B: 5x400 = 2000 difference 100% like firing people

there should be a method that fleetnumbers about + / - 25% should not have this effect like it is now.

suggestion:

in life, the output of a group is limited by a logarithmic law. for example:

1 worker works with 100% 2 worker only with 2x 98%, 10 worker with 10x70%

the reason is the loss of human organisation


solution:

all damage/shield transfer on one vessel should be limited by a logarithmic function

fleet A: 10x400*0,72= 2880 fleet B: 5x400*0,83= 1660 difference: only 73%

this means: more outnumberes fleets will get into fight

side effect: firing on different targets gets more befenefit than all people firing on one target, so a

good fc and fleet organsisation will be a great advantage

log function: y=1,1 x log (10/ x^0,35) x... number firing people on vessel, y... reduction number

solo pvp: +10% 2--> 98% 20---> 60% 100-->33% 256--> 17%


(log function can be optimized I am sure)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2012-03-02 10:23:45 UTC
Get brave FCs.
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-02 10:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jovan Geldon
You are working under the false assumption that every fight should be fair
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#4 - 2012-03-02 10:36:47 UTC
John Eisenauge wrote:
two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.

All your numbers are based on complete misunderstanding of what equal means, and what you are trying to change is the simple fact that the majority of people are risk averse cowards.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
John Eisenauge
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-03-02 10:46:45 UTC
jovan - your are absolutley right ,-)

but i hate roaming hours and hours to find a appropriate fleet. "...fc ... **** this fleet is a little to big for us.. go safe..."
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-03-02 11:00:02 UTC
the solution to OP's issue is colloquially referred to as "bubble" - its various variations do a very fine job of preventing outnumbered fleets from running away.

.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-03-02 11:00:38 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
All your numbers are based on complete misunderstanding of what equal means, and what you are trying to change is the simple fact that the majority of people are risk averse cowards.


there is one hell of a difference between not being suicidal and being risk averse

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#8 - 2012-03-02 11:15:28 UTC
would make suicide harder no?

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Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

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TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-02 11:18:39 UTC
don't be a pussy, problem solved.

Oh... or EWAR.... or logis... or a better understanding of the game... or an FC that knows what to punch first.

MOAR doesn't always mean better
Herold Oldtimer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-02 11:28:03 UTC
Remove the fear of getting on someone elses kb, and remove the aversion to risk. Problem solved
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#11 - 2012-03-02 11:36:45 UTC
Better Solution:

Bring moar friends, train up logi pilots.

\o/


I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Terra Khashour
Dark Tendencies
#12 - 2012-03-02 11:44:43 UTC
John Eisenauge wrote:
the big issue in eve is that a fleet with 10 people runs away if the see a fleet with 15-20 people. (fleet

config similar). Same problem with two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.

fleet A: 10x400 (volley) = 4000 fleet B: 5x400 = 2000 difference 100% like firing people

there should be a method that fleetnumbers about + / - 25% should not have this effect like it is now.

suggestion:

in life, the output of a group is limited by a logarithmic law. for example:

1 worker works with 100% 2 worker only with 2x 98%, 10 worker with 10x70%

the reason is the loss of human organisation


solution:

all damage/shield transfer on one vessel should be limited by a logarithmic function

fleet A: 10x400*0,72= 2880 fleet B: 5x400*0,83= 1660 difference: only 73%

this means: more outnumberes fleets will get into fight

side effect: firing on different targets gets more befenefit than all people firing on one target, so a

good fc and fleet organsisation will be a great advantage

log function: y=1,1 x log (10/ x^0,35) x... number firing people on vessel, y... reduction number

solo pvp: +10% 2--> 98% 20---> 60% 100-->33% 256--> 17%


(log function can be optimized I am sure)


M8, go play WoW they have some pvp areas there where is such scalling... tbh this is eve if u r km whore thats your problem, runing is part of this game ...
sakurako
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-03-02 13:21:09 UTC
people do fight out numbered all the time and alot of time they do die but when they fight with out fear of loss they can get some good kills

why on earth should there do method that limits the damage one group can do.
Raiz Nhell
PeregrineXII
#14 - 2012-03-02 13:24:20 UTC
Why does it need to be fair... Screw fair...

If I'm outnumbered, out gunned and out commanded, I'm going to lose, I run, its my fault no one else's....
If I out gun, out number and out command I win

Stop complaining that you got beat and it's unfair... Learn and next time bring more, with better guns, better lead...

Natural selection doesn't stop at the keyboard...

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.
Mokokan
Transtar Services
#15 - 2012-03-02 15:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mokokan
John Eisenauge wrote:
the big issue in eve is that a fleet with 10 people runs away if the see a fleet with 15-20 people. (fleet

config similar). Same problem with two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.

...............


(log function can be optimized I am sure)




The "big issue" is why do you want CCP's math to fight your battle? There are ways for a ten man fleet to fight a 20 man fleet, but geez, why on earth do you want the game to gimp the big fleet to make it happen? Why on earth would you want to penalize a group for bringing more numbers, organization or I.Q. ???? They should be rewarded for their efforts, not penalized.

If the "better" fleet wants to engage the "unwilling" small fleet, then they should be clever about forcing the fight, or go home empty handed!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#16 - 2012-03-02 16:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
The art of applying your strengths against your opponents weakness is the very heart of combat, it always has been. Vast amounts of literature are devoted to the subject.

Numerical superiority is one such strength that your opononet is trying to negate using evasive tactics. Your task is to develop effective tactics to prevent him from doing this, so that you can leverage your advantage.

The diminishing returns that you describe already affect combat in this game in exactly the same way as they affect combat (or other interactions) in reality. Effective fleets minimize this loss, as is illustrated by the many fleets that have effectively trounced fleets much larger than themselves.

This is the very heart and soul of combat, and should not be masked by math equations.

If you wish to argue that even more tactical options should be available in game for those skilled enough to recognize and use them effectively, I "might" support that. But employing an artificial mechanic that negates the need for tactics is something I cannot support.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-03-02 16:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
John Eisenauge wrote:
"I knows something about mathes"


Yeah that's great. But, if this is some scientific observation you're stating here then wouldn't it already be applied in game and your advocating that it be applied artificially is just "double dipping"?

Basically, what you're advocating is that smaller fleets while still out gunned even under the influence of your log functions might be snookered into fighting anyway under the guise of "We might make it".

Your logic also fails to account for more skilled and experienced fleets. I've been in fights where I've had fewer ships than the fleet I was fighting based purely on the fact that my guys had better skills. It was a stalemate, no losses either side and we went for 5 rounds. Can't say I do this often as it is very risky. But it was very fun and since we were outnumbered fighting on someone's home turf where they could and did warp off switching to fresh ships or able to rep, I consider it a win on our part.

IMO, there's no need for this. If it's some natural "law" then it's already being applied even in game purely because there are human's playing the game.

Don't ban me, bro!
Stellar Vix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-03-02 16:27:44 UTC
You have no idea how often I have to remind all of my rookies how a real FC would not do what I order them to do. Especially in unfair fights specifically designed to destroy my fleet becuase I saw the hostile scout several jumps back.

Tails down for this idea ladies and gentlemen.

-Vix

SWA Instructor, Commander Select Currently being blamed as SWA's CEO SWA PVP Program
Lin Fatale
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-03-02 17:25:02 UTC
everyone would fight, even outnumbered if you see a good chance to kill half of the enemy fleet
It does not matter if you lose you complete fleet, the only point that matters is
can my fleet kill a good portion of the enemy fleet - yes / no

without logis and similar configs, its a simple number game
+/-25% fleetsize you can fight easily

the problem is when logis show up
then there is a risk that you lose your whole fleet and dont kill anything
and thats the point where the most ppl run

And think about, when is a fight over?
the fight is over when you cannot break the enemy logi tank
size does not matter 10vs10 or 500vs500


so i would more think into direction of nerf logis a bit
- normal ships - xx% resis and +xx%hp
- ceptors and commandships still with high resis, so they have a role and makes sense to field
- boost RR
--> RR is funny, every fleetmember has more to do then pres F1, and elite groups can saty elite with RRskils
--> more explosions w/o logis

and forget about the troll ****
get more dudes
my 10man fleet with logi will own any 20man red fleet, cuz usualy 20 man fleets dont have logis
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#20 - 2012-03-04 00:05:51 UTC
You want to build into game mechanics something that is already built into human beings. Why should this be redundant?

Just because 25 people show up in local doesn't mean 25 people are coming after your 12 man fleet. Out of those 25 - 2 will have clicked the jump button instead of the warp button, 1 will warp to the wrong gate, 1 is too stoned/drunk to react in time, 2 will be shooting at the wrong targets, etc...

As you pointed out, inefficiency is already built into human beings there is no need to model it in the game. What you need, as someone pointed out earlier, is willingness to fight. But since most people are carebears or kill-mail whores (oh noes I might lose my shipzors!), ppl with even or inferior numbers are just going to run. All everyone wants is to gank, with 100% certain victory. This has turned EVE into the cesspool it currently is.

What CCP should do is hand over stargate control to the alliances that have SOV, and allow us to turn them off. That way you can jump in... but you can't jump out. THAT would be awesome :)
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