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WH space

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Sam Chadelanne
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#1 - 2012-02-29 21:09:20 UTC
I have been thinking about finding a WH corp but before i do this can someone tell me about the life in a WH. specifically i want to know about the isk that can be made and how easy it is to establish and lock down a WH.

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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-29 21:25:34 UTC
http://eve-wormholes.blogspot.com/2009/06/living-in-wh-space.html

Start at the beginning. Great blog about WH. It's what got me hooked.
Sam Chadelanne
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#3 - 2012-02-29 22:24:33 UTC
Hey thanks for the info I was always interested in WH and never really knew what to expect this really helped now i only have to get the skill and a new corp, feeling sad about the corp though it's a family corp

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Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-03-01 00:11:13 UTC
A couple more guides that might be helpful. the first one is excellent.


Islands among the Stars: A Guide To Everything Wormhole. Arcdragon.
http://www.fiercewebs.com/arcdragon/EverythingWormhole.pdf
Excellent! Was one of my early reads prior to jumping in at the deep end.


The Complete Unknown. Lorkin Desal.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1108/The_Complete_Unknown%5B2%5D.pdf
Recent ... No idea re quality

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Sam Chadelanne
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#5 - 2012-03-01 01:05:46 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
A couple more guides that might be helpful. the first one is excellent.


Islands among the Stars: A Guide To Everything Wormhole. Arcdragon.
http://www.fiercewebs.com/arcdragon/EverythingWormhole.pdf
Excellent! Was one of my early reads prior to jumping in at the deep end.


The Complete Unknown. Lorkin Desal.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1108/The_Complete_Unknown%5B2%5D.pdf
Recent ... No idea re quality



thats one heavy read there looks like i need to get a cup of tea and settle in for the nightShocked

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Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-03-01 01:20:26 UTC
W-space **is** quite different. W-space is not for everyone. W-space can be quite effort intensive. W-space can also be hugely profitable.

No amount of reading is gonna prepare you for everything, but if it saves you a few days of messing around and a few stupid ship losses then, IMO, it's well worth it.

Once you've decided that you are gonna go into w-space then you gonna need to decide what sort of system (class, statics, PI, effects etc) and what type of operation (homebodies or raiding via static). Those decisions ar gonna depend on your skills, experience, resources, and how you want to play your w-space efforts.

Then you're gonna hafta find a suitable w-system and setup there.

Then, finally, you get to start doing stuff :-)

You can always test the water by scanning-raiding w-systems from hisec ... but that can be fairly dangerous if you're not experienced in w-space antics.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-03-01 02:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
That everything WH guide is probably a good place to start but it's rather out dated and designed for medium skilled corps at best.
Truth is that the top corps do not write guides in general as they like keeping trade secrets to themselves.

The amount of isk you can make these days running sites in a c1-3 is less than running high sec incursions with a crap ton more risk so IMO not worth it.
C4s pay more and the isk in c5-6 is the most you can make doing any sort of PVE in EVE (if you know how).
AFAIK there are no guides on running c5-6 sites well.

The most important thing to note about WHs is that they are a severely hostile PVP environment.
There are people who live there that will camp your WH for months just to make you nervous and get a few kills just for funsies because they have a spare bomber alt.
There are people who will camp a covops for 12 hours just to get the kill.
There are people who will blow up your POS because you don't fight back.
There are people who will blow up your POS because you close a convo with them before they are done.
And there is not local so you won't see them coming.
I have done and know people who have done all of these things.

Basically, people who live in WHs long term are statistically far better at killing you and making your EVE life hell than you are and not dying.

If this does not appeal to you, stay in high sec.
If it does, welcome aboard Cool

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-03-01 02:50:06 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

The amount of isk you can make these days running sites in a c1-3 is less than running high sec incursions with a crap ton more risk so IMO not worth it.
]


I'd have to disagree with this point, in that it is far too generalized, and therefore not universally true.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-03-01 03:25:26 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

The amount of isk you can make these days running sites in a c1-3 is less than running high sec incursions with a crap ton more risk so IMO not worth it.
]


I'd have to disagree with this point, in that it is far too generalized, and therefore not universally true.


it is true.

im not saying that c1-3 WHs arent worth living in, but if youre specifically after isk from killing sleepers, it's a waste of time.
those low class whs are great for PVP, t3 production, PI ect.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-03-01 03:48:40 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

The amount of isk you can make these days running sites in a c1-3 is less than running high sec incursions with a crap ton more risk so IMO not worth it.
]


I'd have to disagree with this point, in that it is far too generalized, and therefore not universally true.


it is true.

im not saying that c1-3 WHs arent worth living in, but if youre specifically after isk from killing sleepers, it's a waste of time.
those low class whs are great for PVP, t3 production, PI ect.


It is true with a disclaimer. I would say you need to tack the following to the end of your statment "...for those with the skills to fly an incursion worthy ship and the time to run them"

For skills, I will use me as an example. I moved into a C1 when I was a mere 5 months into this game (I also have an alt that is one month behind my main). At 5 months old I did not fly anything that would get me into an incursion fleet. Even now, at 10 months old, I don't really have a ton of ships that would get me reliable invites. But in the 5 months living in a C1, I have made billions upon billions of isk. And that isk is at least twice the isk/hr I was ever seeing running LVL 4 missions (my primary PVE income source before moving in).

The second is time. From talking to friends, to really do well with incursions you need a decent block of time. I'd figure at least an hour, preferrably 2. This also depends on how far you may have to travel to get to the incursion and how quickly a fleet can form up AND how quickly you can get invited.

Again I will use me as an example. My RL has kept me fairly busy. Many nights I simply don't have that kind of time to dedicate to EVE. Tonight for example I logged in to find 3 new anoms had spawned. I ran them, salvaged. Now I'm writing this reply, then i have some work and then get to bed.

C1 sites pretty much take me 4.5-5 min to run. 1.5-2min to salvage. Factoring in warp time lets say 10min a site. So it took me 30min to clear those (actually less but round numbers are easy). In 5 months I have found the average nano's per C1 site is about 5. Tonight was a little light, as I only got 8. At say 8mil per, thats 64mil in 30min, or 128mil/hr. Not too shabby. Given I only had this 30min window to play tonight, I would have likely made 0 trying to run an incursion.

Now don't take this as picking on you or anything. I highly respect your WH experience, and that of all of the big WH alliances (I hope to do more of what you guys do in the future). But it is overly simplified to just say, incursions make more.

Additionally, WH life, at least for me, is more about a total EVE life than just isk/hr. I highly enjoy how dynamic it is. Every day is different. Some days I get lots of sites, and its a big PVE day. Some days I get random WH neighbors which open up PVP opportunities. Sometimes wormholes spawn while I am clearing sites, which makes for even more fun. Sometimes the WH is dead, so I can poke my head out my lowsec static for some LS PVE or PVP fun.
Vihura
Vihura Cor
#11 - 2012-03-01 10:58:37 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

The amount of isk you can make these days running sites in a c1-3 is less than running high sec incursions with a crap ton more risk so IMO not worth it.
]


I'd have to disagree with this point, in that it is far too generalized, and therefore not universally true.


it is true.

im not saying that c1-3 WHs arent worth living in, but if youre specifically after isk from killing sleepers, it's a waste of time.
those low class whs are great for PVP, t3 production, PI ect.


It is true with a disclaimer. I would say you need to tack the following to the end of your statment "...for those with the skills to fly an incursion worthy ship and the time to run them"

For skills, I will use me as an example. I moved into a C1 when I was a mere 5 months into this game (I also have an alt that is one month behind my main). At 5 months old I did not fly anything that would get me into an incursion fleet. Even now, at 10 months old, I don't really have a ton of ships that would get me reliable invites. But in the 5 months living in a C1, I have made billions upon billions of isk. And that isk is at least twice the isk/hr I was ever seeing running LVL 4 missions (my primary PVE income source before moving in).

The second is time. From talking to friends, to really do well with incursions you need a decent block of time. I'd figure at least an hour, preferrably 2. This also depends on how far you may have to travel to get to the incursion and how quickly a fleet can form up AND how quickly you can get invited.

Again I will use me as an example. My RL has kept me fairly busy. Many nights I simply don't have that kind of time to dedicate to EVE. Tonight for example I logged in to find 3 new anoms had spawned. I ran them, salvaged. Now I'm writing this reply, then i have some work and then get to bed.

C1 sites pretty much take me 4.5-5 min to run. 1.5-2min to salvage. Factoring in warp time lets say 10min a site. So it took me 30min to clear those (actually less but round numbers are easy). In 5 months I have found the average nano's per C1 site is about 5. Tonight was a little light, as I only got 8. At say 8mil per, thats 64mil in 30min, or 128mil/hr. Not too shabby. Given I only had this 30min window to play tonight, I would have likely made 0 trying to run an incursion.

Now don't take this as picking on you or anything. I highly respect your WH experience, and that of all of the big WH alliances (I hope to do more of what you guys do in the future). But it is overly simplified to just say, incursions make more.

Additionally, WH life, at least for me, is more about a total EVE life than just isk/hr. I highly enjoy how dynamic it is. Every day is different. Some days I get lots of sites, and its a big PVE day. Some days I get random WH neighbors which open up PVP opportunities. Sometimes wormholes spawn while I am clearing sites, which makes for even more fun. Sometimes the WH is dead, so I can poke my head out my lowsec static for some LS PVE or PVP fun.



This...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2012-03-01 12:40:32 UTC
Quote:
Additionally, WH life, at least for me, is more about a total EVE life than just isk/hr. I highly enjoy how dynamic it is. Every day is different. Some days I get lots of sites, and its a big PVE day. Some days I get random WH neighbors which open up PVP opportunities. Sometimes wormholes spawn while I am clearing sites, which makes for even more fun. Sometimes the WH is dead, so I can poke my head out my lowsec static for some LS PVE or PVP fun.


This, exactly this. I just retired my trade alt, WH life is just so full of fun and a complete experience I don't want to waste time doing anything else anymore. Obviously best shared with a great, tight group :)

.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-03-01 13:31:29 UTC
Sam Chadelanne wrote:
I have been thinking about finding a WH corp but before i do this can someone tell me about the life in a WH. specifically i want to know about the isk that can be made and how easy it is to establish and lock down a WH.


specifically:

you can make a lot of isk. if youre in a small corp you can do lower class wormholes and make around 60-70m an hour id say. the more experienced you get, and the better organised you get when collapsing for new farming grounds and punching sleepers the higher this gets.

if you join one of the big wormhole corps or alliances and get your skills ready, this can go up to 100's of millions an hour or even over a billion if you can multi-box

as for locking down, you cant. you can not activate your static or make sure youre only connected to wh's that are empty, but at any given time another wormhole can open up to yours. the big corps and alliances have scanners checking for this 24/7 and will be able to close an incomming wormhole in a matter of minutes after spawning, but if you dont have that many pilots it might be hours, or right to the moment they scrammed you

in general wh space is great, but different. you cant avoid pvp, and itll arive when its inconvenient. in the higher classes it can take days to get a good highsec connection, and you have no idea when a safe connection you had 5 minutes ago becomes extremely hostile. its a great place to live :)
Blinking Duck
The Kurian Order
#14 - 2012-03-01 15:02:12 UTC
One of the issues with a WH corp is that while they can be very profitable you are generally not allowed to make any money there.

Unless you set up the WH itself, you are reliant on the corporation to supply the infrastructure/logistics and, in return, they want pretty much everything.

Sleepers, for example...the 'salvage goes to the corp'. The problem is that sleeper salvage IS the isk, not the sleepers themselves.

Want to try PI? Sure, go ahead. However, give all the stuff you get to the corp please.

Probing down interesting sites? SOunds good...but we do them as a corp (tbh, you HAVE to as they are many times very very tough) and then you are back to 'salvage goes to the corp' again.

I had an alt belong to a WH corp and I don't really think of what they do as scamming me...the corp was growing in strength. They were building cap ships aplenty to defend the WH, more POSs etc, however I never saw a point where *I* could make some serious isk and I needed it! I ofund out I was better running off lvl 4's then in a high class WH.

tbh though, I've had this problem in every corp I've joined. It takes a different form but it is always build up the corp strength and it never reaches a point where *my* strength has importance. I have gotten very jaded and skeptical - my main is at about 50 mill SP and is pretty much a loner making a isk (net worth over 20 bill would be my guess at this point) but every time I try to join a corp it never seems to be a mutual beneficial arrangement - just stuff flowing to the corp.
Splodger
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-03-01 15:11:34 UTC
Blinking Duck wrote:
One of the issues with a WH corp is that while they can be very profitable you are generally not allowed to make any money there.

Unless you set up the WH itself, you are reliant on the corporation to supply the infrastructure/logistics and, in return, they want pretty much everything.

Sleepers, for example...the 'salvage goes to the corp'. The problem is that sleeper salvage IS the isk, not the sleepers themselves.

Want to try PI? Sure, go ahead. However, give all the stuff you get to the corp please.

Probing down interesting sites? SOunds good...but we do them as a corp (tbh, you HAVE to as they are many times very very tough) and then you are back to 'salvage goes to the corp' again.

I had an alt belong to a WH corp and I don't really think of what they do as scamming me...the corp was growing in strength. They were building cap ships aplenty to defend the WH, more POSs etc, however I never saw a point where *I* could make some serious isk and I needed it! I ofund out I was better running off lvl 4's then in a high class WH.

tbh though, I've had this problem in every corp I've joined. It takes a different form but it is always build up the corp strength and it never reaches a point where *my* strength has importance. I have gotten very jaded and skeptical - my main is at about 50 mill SP and is pretty much a loner making a isk (net worth over 20 bill would be my guess at this point) but every time I try to join a corp it never seems to be a mutual beneficial arrangement - just stuff flowing to the corp.


Thats a very bleak story about wormhole corps, generally a 10-15% tax from sleeper kills is acceptable but if your not getting a split from sales of activities then you definatley need to move corps.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-03-01 15:12:20 UTC
Blinking Duck wrote:
One of the issues with a WH corp is that while they can be very profitable you are generally not allowed to make any money there.

Unless you set up the WH itself, you are reliant on the corporation to supply the infrastructure/logistics and, in return, they want pretty much everything.

Sleepers, for example...the 'salvage goes to the corp'. The problem is that sleeper salvage IS the isk, not the sleepers themselves.

Want to try PI? Sure, go ahead. However, give all the stuff you get to the corp please.

Probing down interesting sites? SOunds good...but we do them as a corp (tbh, you HAVE to as they are many times very very tough) and then you are back to 'salvage goes to the corp' again.

I had an alt belong to a WH corp and I don't really think of what they do as scamming me...the corp was growing in strength. They were building cap ships aplenty to defend the WH, more POSs etc, however I never saw a point where *I* could make some serious isk and I needed it! I ofund out I was better running off lvl 4's then in a high class WH.

tbh though, I've had this problem in every corp I've joined. It takes a different form but it is always build up the corp strength and it never reaches a point where *my* strength has importance. I have gotten very jaded and skeptical - my main is at about 50 mill SP and is pretty much a loner making a isk (net worth over 20 bill would be my guess at this point) but every time I try to join a corp it never seems to be a mutual beneficial arrangement - just stuff flowing to the corp.



Damn, what kinda sh!thole corps have you belonged to? When I have run corp wide sites, they took all the salvage, took out 10%, and divided the rest between the site participants.
Blinking Duck
The Kurian Order
#17 - 2012-03-01 15:34:17 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:



Damn, what kinda sh!thole corps have you belonged to? When I have run corp wide sites, they took all the salvage, took out 10%, and divided the rest between the site participants.




Which is how it should be!

That's what I keep telling myself - that I just need to find a good corp. However, after more than 10 and after 3 years you start to get to thinking they all are crap .

It always ends up being that I can make more isk by myself than with a group. There should be a sort of synergy - a win-win where both the group and the indiviudal do better than apart. However, I have yet to see it.
Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#18 - 2012-03-01 17:07:00 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Blinking Duck wrote:
One of the issues with a WH corp is that while they can be very profitable you are generally not allowed to make any money there.

Unless you set up the WH itself, you are reliant on the corporation to supply the infrastructure/logistics and, in return, they want pretty much everything.

Sleepers, for example...the 'salvage goes to the corp'. The problem is that sleeper salvage IS the isk, not the sleepers themselves.

Want to try PI? Sure, go ahead. However, give all the stuff you get to the corp please.

Probing down interesting sites? SOunds good...but we do them as a corp (tbh, you HAVE to as they are many times very very tough) and then you are back to 'salvage goes to the corp' again.

I had an alt belong to a WH corp and I don't really think of what they do as scamming me...the corp was growing in strength. They were building cap ships aplenty to defend the WH, more POSs etc, however I never saw a point where *I* could make some serious isk and I needed it! I ofund out I was better running off lvl 4's then in a high class WH.

tbh though, I've had this problem in every corp I've joined. It takes a different form but it is always build up the corp strength and it never reaches a point where *my* strength has importance. I have gotten very jaded and skeptical - my main is at about 50 mill SP and is pretty much a loner making a isk (net worth over 20 bill would be my guess at this point) but every time I try to join a corp it never seems to be a mutual beneficial arrangement - just stuff flowing to the corp.



Damn, what kinda sh!thole corps have you belonged to? When I have run corp wide sites, they took all the salvage, took out 10%, and divided the rest between the site participants.


Sounds like you ran afoul of a complete ass filled Corp duck. I can vouch for us and say that other than alliance dues and PI tax, what we make off each site goes right into our pocket. And given out ability to churn through sites like a chainsaw through butter, we make isk pretty well.

That being said, we also enjoy making isk off ships that decide to run sites too. WH space is wonderful in that there's always something to do, just have to be a little proactive in looking for it. Small gang pvp? Got it. PI? Oh yeah. PvE versus tougher rats than a level 5? And how! Satisfaction and fun with friends in Deep Space?

Wouldn't have it any other way.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-03-01 17:07:59 UTC
Blinking Duck wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:



Damn, what kinda sh!thole corps have you belonged to? When I have run corp wide sites, they took all the salvage, took out 10%, and divided the rest between the site participants.




Which is how it should be!

That's what I keep telling myself - that I just need to find a good corp. However, after more than 10 and after 3 years you start to get to thinking they all are crap .

It always ends up being that I can make more isk by myself than with a group. There should be a sort of synergy - a win-win where both the group and the indiviudal do better than apart. However, I have yet to see it.

Hmmmm - if your in a group that only does "isk generation" for each player, you might make more.

I don't know.

Adhocracy has been in Wormholes for 3 years. Do we make tonnes of isk? Nope. But that's not our "focus". Our focus is on personal freedom/initiative.

We also do things corp wide, because we're not a "group of individuals that plays in a corp", we are a corp that supports our individuals. Some weeks (depending on what gets done) we have hundreds of millions of payouts to each member. Some weeks, less... vOv works for us for 3 years.

I wish you luck OP in finding a good corp.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#20 - 2012-03-01 17:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Blinking Duck wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:



Damn, what kinda sh!thole corps have you belonged to? When I have run corp wide sites, they took all the salvage, took out 10%, and divided the rest between the site participants.




Which is how it should be!

That's what I keep telling myself - that I just need to find a good corp. However, after more than 10 and after 3 years you start to get to thinking they all are crap .

It always ends up being that I can make more isk by myself than with a group. There should be a sort of synergy - a win-win where both the group and the indiviudal do better than apart. However, I have yet to see it.
HTFU and stop getting bent over. You're making me agree with Jack in here FFS.

How payouts are usually done https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=868969#post868969

As for w-space corps/alliances, there's still many of every size with different focuses and thus choosing to live in different class holes with different bonuses, statics and behaviours. Any that have been going for > 18months are probably doing something right for their members. Adhoc, Talocan, AHARM, Aquila, Transmission Lost, the list goes on, the styles differ.
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