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Implants - CCP's anti-PvP feature?
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L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-02-29 19:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: L4ST
Hi fellow capsuleers,

once again I really wonder what the implant system is for. To be more specific: the loss of Implants when a Pod is destroyed. While from roleplaying point of view this makes a lot of sense, for gameplay I just don't get it.

As having a Pod killed is an inevitable risk in PvP, people have 3 options:

a) have a PvP Alt
b) have a PvP Jumpclone
c) get your implants blown every once and a while

All these options imply that a PvPing capsuleer can't skill at the rate of another one who does not risk losing his capsule.

I just don't see the point here. Why are PvPing capsuleers punished in the hardest way possible in EVE, a lower SP rate?
As far as I can see the only impact here is that some players are scared off PvP in fear of losing implants or SP/hour by using a jump clone.

ISK are removed for implants, more ISK would be removed if less players would be scared off PvP.

I would like to see if people share my opinion or if I miss something here.


EDIT, mainly for the redditors:

Just for clarification:

I actually can afford to lose several clones with all +5 Implants. I just know that back in the time this was the reason that kept me away from helping my Alliance in PvP. The point is that I see ingame friends and several of our alliance members afraid of PvP "because they have no SP and still need to skill". As I too feel uncomfortable everytime I jump in my +4/+5 PvP clone because I lose some SP/hour here I decided to create this suggestion.

It is for discussion. It saddens me how many ****** haters are not participating in a discussion but mindlessly flame.

Yes, moneywise EVE is "don't afford what you can't lose", I fully agree. But that never was the point of this issue. The point is the SP/hour rate, which is the core of progress in EVE. Honestly, anybody with more than 10kk SP can make more ISK to buy new ships than he would blow up ships or skill for new ships.


____________________________________


To sum up the thread so far:

- most people think that implants are an important ISK sink
- this stands opposite to the idea that removing/changing implants would get ppl to pvp and make more ISK be blown up there
- imho other ISK sinks which don't have negative influences can be found
- lots of kiddies cry because they think this is a cry thread. It's not. It's about getting people to PvP, especially new ones
- the SP/hour difference - or better: the ISK risk - makes people sit around in empire space. Some capsuleers here go rather offensive as they see it as "ok", but I would ask all those to tell me what the positive effect is.

neat maths to see what the negative effects (especially for young capsuleers) in terms of SP/Hour are:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=883287#post883287

I thought about the implant issue and found no positive impact on gameplay (in ANY way) - other than the ISK sink, which some other players doubt as much as I do. So: Still trying to figure out.
Mister Burns
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-02-29 20:03:21 UTC
Maybe remove all attribute implants (and the attribute bonus from pirate implants) and give all players +3 in all attributes? It's an idea, don't know how good tho as I just came up with it.

Anyway not a big deal, if you can afford to pvp you can afford +2 implants and I don't really cry every time I jump into my nullsec clone and get -2 in all attribs.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#3 - 2012-02-29 20:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
+1

I see the purpose of pirate/performance implants, both from a pvp and a pve perspective, but attribute enhancements sole impact is to negatively impact pvp.

Having said that, I don't think the impact is too great, having a few +4s in doesn't cost too much and the difference between 4s and 5s is minimal.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-29 20:17:02 UTC
d) Use implants you can afford to lose
Velicitia
XS Tech
#5 - 2012-02-29 20:23:54 UTC
"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" applies to pods just the same way that it applies to ships.

Me? I pew in the same clone (+3 attribute implants) as I do other stuff in...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kitt JT
True North.
#6 - 2012-02-29 21:54:59 UTC
pvpers also have the most fun :)

most pvpers fly with +3's, which really aren't that much (20 mil when you die cause you only need to buy 2 implants)
i happen to fly with 2x +4's because i had extra lp's sitting around.

but in general, its really not that bad. the difference between +3's and +5's isnt really that much, especially if you consider that most gameplay is made for pvpers.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2012-02-29 22:00:32 UTC
Pish... you all are cheapos. I'm currently flying around in a frigate with a billion worth in implants right now. And I understand and accept the risks.

How did you Veterans start?
Addrake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-02-29 22:01:22 UTC
An average pod in 0.0 costs 20m. One +3 implant for your primary attribute, one +3 implant for your secondary attribute. That's not a whole lot of money for a significant boost in training time. Sure it's not +5's.. but then I don't even use +5's on my highsec Indy alts.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#9 - 2012-02-29 22:42:35 UTC
I give you the the smart system:

running a int/mem skill....run int/mem implants
running a perc/will skiil....run perc/will implants


you only lose 2 instead 4/5 implants.


Also worth noting lots of pvp'er run skill hardwires jsut for pvp. Implants with total value greater than above. And you got the smaller population who run pirates, LG as well as some brave souls with HG.


Lose stuff, rat/mission for isk, buy again. Welcome to eve. I have had meat grinder nights in th blob where I ran no implants for a few hours since ships did not last very long. It was not end of the world. The pvp was fun, made for a good night. Worth the insignificant loss in training time for the night.

Also worth noting if you are actually running pvp and learning from it....it will do way more to improving your skill than a number on a sheet. right now there is a hangar spinning idiot waiting for his AF to train to 5 to fly his AF in pvp. Somewhere else there is a player who has his AF at 2 and is actually flying his ship to get better with it. The latter is playng eve the right way.
Wukulo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-02-29 22:44:40 UTC
There is a super easy fix for this situation:

Allow players to swap clones by flying to the station a clone is in with out having to use their JC timer.

Expensive PVE clones can be avoided for PVP use while still keeping PVP implants on the field to add risk to PVP.

JC function remains useful while still being rarer enough not to be over powered.

Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you.
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#11 - 2012-02-29 23:51:06 UTC
Doesn't make sense that a full set of implants cost more than a damn battleship hull.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#12 - 2012-03-01 03:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Lenier Chenal wrote:
Doesn't make sense that a full set of implants cost more than a damn battleship hull.


My computer is valued more more than my 91 Toytoa Camrey with 299k miles on it.
Hell, there's a carbon nanotube implant thingy no bigger than a pen cap that NASA is playing around with (it's supposed to auto-release medicine into your body and lasts for YEARS)... it costs more than BOTH my computer and car.

Bigger Size =/= Expensive

Often, it's the opposite.

How did you Veterans start?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-03-01 03:58:07 UTC
Wukulo wrote:
There is a super easy fix for this situation:

Allow players to swap clones by flying to the station a clone is in with out having to use their JC timer.

Expensive PVE clones can be avoided for PVP use while still keeping PVP implants on the field to add risk to PVP.

JC function remains useful while still being rarer enough not to be over powered.

I like this idea.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-03-01 08:29:34 UTC
Edited.


And just to make that clear: THIS IS NOT ABOUT ISK

lol, who cares about some ISK -.-
it is about less SP/hour fpr PvPers.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-03-01 08:40:46 UTC
L4ST wrote:
Edited.


And just to make that clear: THIS IS NOT ABOUT ISK

lol, who cares about some ISK -.-
it is about less SP/hour fpr PvPers.

Less SP/hour is the choice that PvPers take by cost-risk-benefit analysis. Cost in ISK for implants, with the risk of losing them, versus the benefit of having them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#16 - 2012-03-01 09:12:53 UTC
I think the point the OPer is making is that once again in EVE you are punished for being a Risk taker or participating in PvP. It would be all fine if everyone was subject to the possibility of being pod killed, but really that's not the case. In terms of combat skills it would make sense that the character actively out there fighting other pod pilots would develop skills faster than some slob hiding in a station or taking on lesser capable opponents in the form of NPCs. In terms of gameplay it another factor is dissuading players, especially new ones from participating in PvP or spending time outside of High Sec.

I don't know exactly what the answer is, removing learning implants is one that's often suggested. Alone it's hardly the biggest issue, but combined with all the rest of risk vs reward imbalance atm in EVE it certainly is worth noting, as risk and reward imbalance is very much a major issue right now
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#17 - 2012-03-01 09:42:49 UTC
I like the idea of removeing all +attribute implants, and giving everyone +3 base attributes

and for pirate implants, they could simply remove the + attributes on those and keep the bonus

well what about +4-5 implants?... A worthy sacrifice if you ask me, delete them all!... you could for the sake of continuity say... risk vs reward... since people in high sec have lower risk of being podded, they shouldn't be able to train faster than people in 0.0... so evening out the field sounds like the best solution

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-03-01 11:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
L4ST wrote:
Edited.


And just to make that clear: THIS IS NOT ABOUT ISK

lol, who cares about some ISK -.-
it is about less SP/hour fpr PvPers.


You should be concerned and it is about ISK.

Implants offer a significant isk sink to the game in that the payments are made to NPCs and affords to remove the amassing growth of ISK in it or reduce inlfation.

Simply removing the sink effects from getting rid of implants will only help to increase inflation which is already viewed as problematic in the game.

An alternative solution might be to afford insurance on implants. I can expand on details. But if figured to essentially cover less than the LP isk amount associated with them and fine tuned to a value associated with their risk then essentially you have a means for reducing the impact of implant losses. However since you are paying insurance to NPCs and also encouraging more sales of implants with helping with replacements you are in fact incresing sinks and helping with the inflation issue even more to reduce it.

As such this service would also be more of a benefit to those who are engaged in risking the use of implants. As it would be of little benefit overall to those who keep implants safe anyhow.

So I suggest keeping them to ensure the economy remains stable but add insurance, to reduce risk impacts but also increase isk sinks to help reduce inflation.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-03-01 13:00:30 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Implants offer a significant isk sink to the game in that the payments are made to NPCs and affords to remove the amassing growth of ISK in it or reduce inlfation.

Simply removing the sink effects from getting rid of implants will only help to increase inflation which is already viewed as problematic in the game.

An alternative solution might be to afford insurance on implants. I can expand on details. But if figured to essentially cover less than the LP isk amount associated with them and fine tuned to a value associated with their risk then essentially you have a means for reducing the impact of implant losses. However since you are paying insurance to NPCs and also encouraging more sales of implants with helping with replacements you are in fact incresing sinks and helping with the inflation issue even more to reduce it.

As such this service would also be more of a benefit to those who are engaged in risking the use of implants. As it would be of little benefit overall to those who keep implants safe anyhow.

So I suggest keeping them to ensure the economy remains stable but add insurance, to reduce risk impacts but also increase isk sinks to help reduce inflation.


My first post sais: "ISK are removed for implants, more ISK would be removed if less players would be scared off PvP."

As you mention, there are other, and even better ways to create ISK sinks.
My first thought here by the way was "drug injections" - something other MMO's would refer to as "buff food". Boost your Turret Tracking speed by 2% for 30 Minutes. Everyone would want to have these "drug injections" and a big ISK sink would be created. This is one of a thousand ISK sink ideas out there. IMO finding an ISK sink should not be the problem, and that's why I don't talk about money here. He who has no money can't succeed - thats EVE. He who has 5 Mio SP less than a capsuleer of equal age has simply been ****** by Implant-PvP-correlation. Not very EVEish.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#20 - 2012-03-01 13:02:49 UTC
L4ST wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Implants offer a significant isk sink to the game in that the payments are made to NPCs and affords to remove the amassing growth of ISK in it or reduce inlfation.

Simply removing the sink effects from getting rid of implants will only help to increase inflation which is already viewed as problematic in the game.

An alternative solution might be to afford insurance on implants. I can expand on details. But if figured to essentially cover less than the LP isk amount associated with them and fine tuned to a value associated with their risk then essentially you have a means for reducing the impact of implant losses. However since you are paying insurance to NPCs and also encouraging more sales of implants with helping with replacements you are in fact incresing sinks and helping with the inflation issue even more to reduce it.

As such this service would also be more of a benefit to those who are engaged in risking the use of implants. As it would be of little benefit overall to those who keep implants safe anyhow.

So I suggest keeping them to ensure the economy remains stable but add insurance, to reduce risk impacts but also increase isk sinks to help reduce inflation.


My first post sais: "ISK are removed for implants, more ISK would be removed if less players would be scared off PvP."

As you mention, there are other, and even better ways to create ISK sinks.
My first thought here by the way was "drug injections" - something other MMO's would refer to as "buff food". Boost your Turret Tracking speed by 2% for 30 Minutes. Everyone would want to have these "drug injections" and a big ISK sink would be created. This is one of a thousand ISK sink ideas out there. IMO finding an ISK sink should not be the problem, and that's why I don't talk about money here. He who has no money can't succeed - thats EVE. He who has 5 Mio SP less than a capsuleer of equal age has simply been ****** by Implant-PvP-correlation. Not very EVEish.


Already have drug injections, they are called boosters

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
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