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AFK cloaking !

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Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2011-09-20 23:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
And once again...you fail to answer the ultimate question.

What can that cloaked ship do to you when its obviously no where in sight.

The solution is to have a combat fleet ready to go and play it smart.

Complaing about it wnot solve anything.... a cloaked ship cannot use any modules short of propulsion....thats it.

All you have is the presense of a nuet in system....or a red.... that's it.


If local was removed...and it likely will be.... youd still be screwed over regardless.

This entire arugment is a farse....total waste of time.

the counter is obvious.

Use that head of yours....and stop whining.

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Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2011-09-21 00:08:06 UTC
While I agree with the statement of the last poster in so far as whiners should just be more combat ready, there IS an psychological effect of having a red in local continuously. Which is the reason why I advocate the timed removal from local for non active cloakers. It makes the difference between having to be combat ready 100% of the time, to just the time when the cloaker decides to activate a module, or decloak, or cyno.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2011-09-21 00:11:12 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
While I agree with the statement of the last poster in so far as whiners should just be more combat ready, there IS an psychological effect of having a red in local continuously. Which is the reason why I advocate the timed removal from local for non active cloakers. It makes the difference between having to be combat ready 100% of the time, to just the time when the cloaker decides to activate a module, or decloak, or cyno.



Even then.... YOU CHOOSE To let that cloaker effect you to that degree.

And if they accomplish that much... they win.

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#84 - 2011-09-21 03:17:00 UTC
iblade darkstar wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
iblade darkstar wrote:
sorry but i thought this game was about tactics and counters, hasn't it been said time and time again by ccp that there should be no "I WIN " button in the game.
for every tactic there is a counter, for every mod there is a counter, for every gameplay style there is a counter. this is true for everything in the game but 1 and thats the cloak. the secound you turn it on YOU WIN because no-one can stop you from that point on. i don't care what the counter is to cloaking but there needs to be one, if it's a fuel bay then fine. if it's a 4 hour mod cycle timer then fine, even if it's a pos mod that takes an hour or 2 to scan the system and finds everything in the system weather cloaked or not then thats fine to. but there MUST BE A COUNTER to the cloak or it is the I WIN button of this game.
to the people who say that people will find ways around it well thats true and you know thats fine 2 as long as there are counters to it.


You've failed to explain how a ship, cloaked, unmoving in space with no one at the keyboard is actually winning anything.

The problem isn't the cloaked ship. The problem is that you're afraid of the pilot you see in local that you don't know and can't find.



Tbh cloakers in system don't really bother me, I deal with them in the same way I would any other neutral that comes around and that's mainly by ignoring them and getting on with playing the game the way I would if they hadnt been there in the first place.

My problem is the fact that you can go into a system and do something that NO ONE can counter, like I said in my original post I don't care what the counter is as long as there is a counter. You win because no one can do anything to stop you doing anything you want as long as you are cloaked. If that's not winning in this game then plz explain what you would accept as WIN in this game.


Of course... you can't do pretty much anything while cloaked either. You also can't do anything about people you wardec that stay in stations until you give up the dec. Are they winning?

Really, really weak argument.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2011-09-21 04:01:35 UTC
the single most talked about non-problem in the game...

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-09-21 09:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
What all this talk about 'winning'? Are you all born in the 90s? Constant evasion is fine. Constant potential cyno is just an unfair advantage. Don't get me wrong. I love afk cloaking myself. But I'm happy to play psi war with my prey by popping in and out of local just to see them flee. If my proposal is implemented that is. Presently always being in local is boring and encourages me to afk. Of course I can still replicate this effect by zipping around safe points, but not afk. That being said I'd much rather the current system than some cloak fuel or other cloak gimp.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2011-09-21 09:23:38 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:
Cloaking in system, disrupting an enemies isk making capacity and killing occasional stupid people is a totally valid tactic and should be welcome within the game.

Cloaking your ship in space, then going to work/bed/out drinking to disrupt enemy isk making isnt and should not be allowed, some mechanic to stop it is needed. There should be NO way to affect other players from getting on with their game unless you are sat at your PC actually playing Eve. You can even log back in after DT using a remote desktop which can be done very easily. This is a massively abused tactic.

Basically, if you arnt actually playing Eve, at your computer, you should not be able to affect what other players are doing, even if it is only psychologically.


A question....

how the #### do you know that cloaker is really there (not afk)?

By your logic.... its a valid tactic...but no one in their right brain would ever "answer" in local if they are there if their soul purpose is to spy.

Hypocritical much?

Seriously people...get over yourselves.... AFK or not...the point is... it wont matter a damn if CCP nerfs local..you'll just ***** about something else.


Not sure your reading my post or someone elses, how do i know if someone is there or not? I dont. Not sure what the 'answering' in local bit is all about, doesnt seem tot refer to my post.
Hypocritical? No, I dont think so, im just agreeing that everything should be counterable in some way and you should not be able to affect someones play while you are 20 miles from your PC.
If ccp nerf local, well it becomes irrelevent, afk cloaking will end, becasue there will be no reason for it, the psychological warfare element will be gone.

What I am saying is that if you are afk for long periods, during that period you shouldnt be able to affect what other people do.


Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#88 - 2011-09-21 12:46:08 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:

What I am saying is that if you are afk for long periods, during that period you shouldnt be able to affect what other people do.




The part you're failing to grasp is that the only way they affect what other people do is if you let them affect you.

You know what's really fun? Seeing someone in your wormhole, catching their name and adding it to your contacts and having no idea if they've left your hole or are waiting around hoping for a kill. No local at all to see if they're in your system. We had a stealth bomber hang around like that for a few days... the trick is to not let them keep you from doing what you do but to simply prepare better. You tank a little more, you watch dscan and your overview a little more intently. When running PI, you don't pull up to the planet and park, you come out of warp, immediately initiate warp to the next customs office then you grab/swap your materials out while your ship aligns.

Local has made you weak and your arguments reflect that. 'I can see him! He's spooky! He might kill me while he's afk! Waa!" Grow a pair and counter him. You can easily sneak into a neighboring system to do whatever. You can alter your ship to give you survivability. You can be alert, use dscan, use the ability to have multiple overview tabs, use your friends and allies to work together with.

Cowboy up son. The universe doesn't give a crap if you die or not.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2011-09-21 14:46:22 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:

What I am saying is that if you are afk for long periods, during that period you shouldnt be able to affect what other people do.




The part you're failing to grasp is that the only way they affect what other people do is if you let them affect you.

You know what's really fun? Seeing someone in your wormhole, catching their name and adding it to your contacts and having no idea if they've left your hole or are waiting around hoping for a kill. No local at all to see if they're in your system. We had a stealth bomber hang around like that for a few days... the trick is to not let them keep you from doing what you do but to simply prepare better. You tank a little more, you watch dscan and your overview a little more intently. When running PI, you don't pull up to the planet and park, you come out of warp, immediately initiate warp to the next customs office then you grab/swap your materials out while your ship aligns.

Local has made you weak and your arguments reflect that. 'I can see him! He's spooky! He might kill me while he's afk! Waa!" Grow a pair and counter him. You can easily sneak into a neighboring system to do whatever. You can alter your ship to give you survivability. You can be alert, use dscan, use the ability to have multiple overview tabs, use your friends and allies to work together with.

Cowboy up son. The universe doesn't give a crap if you die or not.


This TBQH.

If you people can't figure that out...you have no business throwing a bloody fit in the first place.
Enjoy local while it lasts wimps... because its going to go straight to hell when its gone.
You haven't experienced sheer paranoia until you've lived in WHS long enough to know what its like to argue with yourself if someone is REALLY there or not.

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Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2011-09-21 15:40:49 UTC
I echo my proposal again, ( which really is a local fix that happens to "fix" aft cloaks too)
All ships off your grid disappears from local after 15min of inactivity. Use of modules (not cloak) make you show up again.
Forces people to toughen up, and adds new cloak tactics. Decloak and show up on local to freak out the locals. Also enforces that you be at the keyboard to engage in this psychological offensive. Blissfully ignorant ratters get to live in their fantasy worlds until you show up with a cyno. Or not. Everyone's interests are served.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#91 - 2011-09-21 16:12:07 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
I echo my proposal again, ( which really is a local fix that happens to "fix" aft cloaks too)
All ships off your grid disappears from local after 15min of inactivity. Use of modules (not cloak) make you show up again.
Forces people to toughen up, and adds new cloak tactics. Decloak and show up on local to freak out the locals. Also enforces that you be at the keyboard to engage in this psychological offensive. Blissfully ignorant ratters get to live in their fantasy worlds until you show up with a cyno. Or not. Everyone's interests are served.


Bleh, mine's better.

1. When you cloak, you disappear from local.
2. When you cloak, you also lose access to local.... you cannot use local for intel gathering and would be required to more actively do so.
3. When you uncloak, there's a 30 or 60 second delay in being able to light a cyno, preventing abuse of the "disappeared from local" to hot drop fleets completely unaware.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2011-09-21 16:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Close, but your #2 gimps cloaking as used for legitimate intel gathering. The other 50% of the reasons why people cloak.

And your #1 would make for weird cases where you can see a ship on grid but it's not in local.

My point of having ANY ship go off local once afk wasn't decided randomly. It's intended to allow for the benefit of the doubt so that people would not be able to identify cloakers in system by their blinking in and out of local all the time. Currently any red in system is also not similarity instantly identifiable. If victims knew that the red is a cloaker, then once he pops up in local again, victims will expect a cyno, and prepare or flee, taking away completely the whole tactical surprise advantage of covert ops all together. The primary 50% of the reason why people fly cloakers.

So we can agree to disagree which one is better, but why don't we let the public decide which is the least disruptive to all parties yet makes everyone happy
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#93 - 2011-09-21 16:52:31 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Close, but your #2 gimps cloaking as used for legitimate intel gathering. The other 50% of the reasons why people cloak.

And your #1 would make for weird cases where you can see a ship on grid but it's not in local.

My point of having ANY ship go off local once afk wasn't decided randomly. It's intended to allow for the benefit of the doubt so that people would not be able to identify cloakers in system by their blinking in and out of local all the time. Currently any red in system is also not similarity instantly identifiable. If victims knew that the red is a cloaker, then once he pops up in local again, victims will expect a cyno, and prepare or flee, taking away completely the whole tactical surprise advantage of covert ops all together. The primary 50% of the reason why people fly cloakers.

So we can agree to disagree which one is better, but why don't we let the public decide which is the least disruptive to all parties yet makes everyone happy


(2) balances is and makes cloaking more strategic. As a counter to being invisible in the systems (think current wormholes), you'd also be responsible for actively gathering your intel. You could be cloaked off a gate, for example, and have some friends at other points and no one would have any idea you're there.

(1) ... if you're cloaked you're not visible on the grid anyhow. When you uncloak, you reappear on local and can use local once again.

(3) bring balance. If you're cloaked but in local, they know you're there. The stupid will get caught, the cowardly will stay docked and the smart will have the means to try to survive should you attack. With the delay on the cyno it's a balance for your invisibility from the system while cloaked. The stupid will still get caught, likely they weren't paying attention anyhow. The cowardly will crap themselves then likely get caught or get away... depends on how you fit your ship. The smart will still likely have a good chance to get away, only they'll be doing so to get a change of underwear.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Gabriel Grimoire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2011-09-21 18:35:43 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Local has made you weak and your arguments reflect that. 'I can see him! He's spooky! He might kill me while he's afk! Waa!" Grow a pair and counter him. You can easily sneak into a neighboring system to do whatever. You can alter your ship to give you survivability. You can be alert, use dscan, use the ability to have multiple overview tabs, use your friends and allies to work together with.


This. This hard.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2011-09-21 23:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Ingvar Angst wrote:


(1) ... if you're cloaked you're not visible on the grid anyhow. When you uncloak, you reappear on local and can use local once again.



Sorry, I should have been more clear, what I meant was for the *cloaker*, you would have people in visual, but not on local. This seriously gimps cloakers, besides being weird. Making notes of who comes in and out of systems is a big part of being a covert ops pilot, and a fully intended function of cloaking. This would take that away, or make it much harder, restricting covert ops to only do visual intelligence gathering.

Your #3 I can accept, but I think that having all afkers go off local is a more general fix to local, keeps cloakers more or less anonymous, and why gimp legitamate cloakers even more? It really is just the "afk for days with an alt for the sole purpose of putting ratters on edge" which is the complaint here.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#96 - 2011-09-22 12:45:15 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


(1) ... if you're cloaked you're not visible on the grid anyhow. When you uncloak, you reappear on local and can use local once again.



Sorry, I should have been more clear, what I meant was for the *cloaker*, you would have people in visual, but not on local. This seriously gimps cloakers, besides being weird. Making notes of who comes in and out of systems is a big part of being a covert ops pilot, and a fully intended function of cloaking. This would take that away, or make it much harder, restricting covert ops to only do visual intelligence gathering.

Your #3 I can accept, but I think that having all afkers go off local is a more general fix to local, keeps cloakers more or less anonymous, and why gimp legitamate cloakers even more? It really is just the "afk for days with an alt for the sole purpose of putting ratters on edge" which is the complaint here.


My apologies if I'm not grasping something... how can the cloaker have anyone on visual but not in local? Oh wait, I get it now. Heh... had to type it for it to sink in.

OK, let's think wormholes... this is an everyday thing. We see bad guys visually and there is basically no local. That's how we do our intel... find 'em, fly in cloaked, look at them. Get names, sneak in to a good place to provide a warp in for allies. Trust me, there's nothing odd about it. What's odd for me is seeing all these people in local (when I'm back in empire) and having no idea where they are, but that's because I'm used to it not being there. Believe me, cloaking isn't gimped at all without local around. It awakens the hunter in you. Ship on dscan... ok, where. Check for combat sites, what type of ship does dscan show, check known wormholes if you suspect they're open. Throw out combats out of dscan range. The very thought of local ever appearing in wormholes (not that that's an issue) would effectively ruin a huge positive of them.

Having cloaked vessels disappear from and not have access to local would ultimately enhance cloaking by making covops, for example, much more interactive. You'd have to work a little more for intel, no more so than in wormholes already, plus you could maintain a true element of surprise that the label "covops" implies. You'd really need to spend some significant time without local to truly appreciate the beauty of it's absence.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2011-09-22 13:13:08 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


(1) ... if you're cloaked you're not visible on the grid anyhow. When you uncloak, you reappear on local and can use local once again.



Sorry, I should have been more clear, what I meant was for the *cloaker*, you would have people in visual, but not on local. This seriously gimps cloakers, besides being weird. Making notes of who comes in and out of systems is a big part of being a covert ops pilot, and a fully intended function of cloaking. This would take that away, or make it much harder, restricting covert ops to only do visual intelligence gathering.

Your #3 I can accept, but I think that having all afkers go off local is a more general fix to local, keeps cloakers more or less anonymous, and why gimp legitamate cloakers even more? It really is just the "afk for days with an alt for the sole purpose of putting ratters on edge" which is the complaint here.


My apologies if I'm not grasping something... how can the cloaker have anyone on visual but not in local? Oh wait, I get it now. Heh... had to type it for it to sink in.

OK, let's think wormholes... this is an everyday thing. We see bad guys visually and there is basically no local. That's how we do our intel... find 'em, fly in cloaked, look at them. Get names, sneak in to a good place to provide a warp in for allies. Trust me, there's nothing odd about it. What's odd for me is seeing all these people in local (when I'm back in empire) and having no idea where they are, but that's because I'm used to it not being there. Believe me, cloaking isn't gimped at all without local around. It awakens the hunter in you. Ship on dscan... ok, where. Check for combat sites, what type of ship does dscan show, check known wormholes if you suspect they're open. Throw out combats out of dscan range. The very thought of local ever appearing in wormholes (not that that's an issue) would effectively ruin a huge positive of them.

Having cloaked vessels disappear from and not have access to local would ultimately enhance cloaking by making covops, for example, much more interactive. You'd have to work a little more for intel, no more so than in wormholes already, plus you could maintain a true element of surprise that the label "covops" implies. You'd really need to spend some significant time without local to truly appreciate the beauty of it's absence.


Adjust probes a little too. There sits a fix to intel gathering -AND- knowing when someone is active in the system. Probing cloaked is common so it wouldn't "gut" intel abilities if the probes gave back the right types of information.

PS: As to wormholes and no local. Unless you'd be willing to drop a gate to your wormhole, that anyone can find with the click of a button... Unless you would be willing to allow cynos to be lit in there so others can jump in... Don't bring the "we have no local" out.

Every last k-space system has fixed paths to them which can easily be seen. k-space residents do not have the ability to collapse an unwanted door to there systems and cycle it else where.

The style of play in EVE from within wormholes is radically different in more ways than just having no local and to inflict this portion of your life on the rest - I'd say your portion should also change so you have a "fixed address" that can be invaded, just like theirs can be invaded.

The above would pretty close to destroy wormhole life in eve - it's also about as harmful to game play as gutting local without what it provides for those who DO have fixed addresses that all others can EASILY find and fly to.

No - wormhole life isn't easy but it sure as hell has some facets to it that make it workable. Don't mix & match across space without being willing to live under the same threats across the board and your "we have no local" is well offset by some other things that you can do to protect yourself - things k-space residents don't have.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#98 - 2011-09-22 13:19:53 UTC
Having random unknown "gates" suddenly appear in your system without any warning is no picnic either. Depending what you're doing, the first time you have a clue the enemy is there is when they decloak and show up on the overview. So yeah, they're different. But, having cloaked vessels disappear from and be unable to use local adds a little mix of 'em, a little spice to empire life that we experience on a daily basis. It's balanced, more interactive and better reflects what cloaking should be.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2011-09-22 16:41:57 UTC
The immediate disappearance from local of a cloaker imbalances the status quo in my opinion. When coming up with a solution to a problem its usually best to just address it in a way that changes the least amount of other factors.

Currently, a cloaker enjoys anonymity. They cannot be distinguished from other people in a system, as they are just all in local. As you well know, knowledge is worth a lot in EVE. Making cloakers immediately disappear from local when they cloak will make them easily distinguishable from others. (thanks to the MWD cloak procedure when entering systems.)

Having everyone disappear from local after a timeout maintains the anonymity that cloakers now enjoy.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#100 - 2011-09-22 17:19:42 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
The immediate disappearance from local of a cloaker imbalances the status quo in my opinion. When coming up with a solution to a problem its usually best to just address it in a way that changes the least amount of other factors.

Currently, a cloaker enjoys anonymity. They cannot be distinguished from other people in a system, as they are just all in local. As you well know, knowledge is worth a lot in EVE. Making cloakers immediately disappear from local when they cloak will make them easily distinguishable from others. (thanks to the MWD cloak procedure when entering systems.)

Having everyone disappear from local after a timeout maintains the anonymity that cloakers now enjoy.


It doesn't imbalance it in my opinion, it rebalances it. Keep in mind, the status quo is what people are complaining about with regards to "afk cloakers". With the immediate removal of the cloaker when cloaking from local, and the immediate inaccessibility of local to the cloaked ships, there's a balance still. It's different than what we're used to in K-space, true, but still a balance. The added "power" you get with the added anonymity come with an added cost, but then again, it's still "less" of a cost than you get simply jumping into w-space. You can always uncloak and reaccess local. You can always learn to watch local a little stronger for people that seem to blink in and out to get an idea if there's indeed a cloaked vessel in system.

Yes, it would require a little adaption from both perspectives, but again it's less of an adaption than if you jump through a wormhole. A little rebalancing would be a good thing (again, my opinion). You'd have a more active intel gathering requirement while cloaked. You'd have the anonymity of being truly cloaked, not simply invisible but seen.

It makes me wonder if we posted a thread in General comparing the two ideas how well they'd be received... Blink

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.