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To POS or not to POS?
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Billy Bob Hatfield
#1 - 2012-02-29 18:26:17 UTC
I’m thinking of getting into the POS game but I could use some advice from the more experienced players. I am thinking of getting into the moon goo business and some research work. After reading all the guides and forum discussions there are two ways I could go about this.

First plan
Setup Hi-sec POS for research to get use to running a starbase. Get the experience and then go to moon mining in low sec.
Pro’s
- Safer than low sec/null sec
- Less need for starbase defence add ons
- Easier start to get the hang of POS management
Con’s
- No moon goo business, requires moving everything when/if I do
- Requires starbase charters
- Mission grinding to get status (I am tired of hauling janitors and homeless people)

Second plan
Go straight into low sec (<=0.3)
Pro’s
- Moon goo party time!
- No starbase charters
- No mission grinding for status
Con’s
- I get blowed up, real good
- I’m afraid to bend over to get the soap


I’ve spent the last couple of months in Low-sec and know how to get around the systems I frequent without getting blowed up or wetting my pants just entering. I picked systems with low activity and I’ve studied who comes in and what they do. I’ve even got some PI going on too. But that’s not the same as sticking up a fixed placement POS, a wonderful big fat target that doesn’t move. I’m a small corp with a couple of alts that can’t defend against a serious attack by a dedicated group. I’ve got about 800M ISK to pay for this up front and I currently earn 500M a month making T1 items and PI. Is it better to go slow or jump in? How often do low sec stations get wacked? Is moon goo making not the party I think it will be? Will low sec pirates make me drop my pants and grab my ankles? I would love to hear from the pros on this.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-02-29 18:33:26 UTC
There are two issues with the your hopes and dreams of getting rich making moon goo out in lowsec.

First off, all the extremely profitable moons are already taken. Right now about the best moon your could hope for would be to slightly more than pay for your POS fuel bills. If you're importing moon goo from the market and then reacting it, you might make a bit more profit on top of that, but that comes with its own logistical nightmares.

Second, unless you have the alliance muscle to back it up, a POS can be nothing more than an expensive (for you) target for a random cap fleet to take out due to boredom. It's impossible to defend a POS without a large backing if they want it dead (and tough to defend it even if they're just bored and looking for a POS to take down).
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#3 - 2012-02-29 18:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Your best bet for the high-sec pos would be to go through sell orders forums and find a good service to provide standings - some even sell corps already made.

You will still need guns on a high-sec pos - wardecs against people with POS in high-sec that have ample labs/factories on them, are still possible.

There are many things you can do at a high-sec pos, only one of which is labs/blueprints.
T2 module production - very profitable.

I went through a particular module this morning, the amount of cash I need to build 2000 units of it was just under 500m, the sale price of 2000 units was 1.3b.
That would take approximately 2 weeks to finish up.
Easily making pos fuel costs and 500m profit left over. Hard work however. t2 production clickfest needs fixing ;)

T2 component production (from moon goo) - there are again people who sell perfectly researched t2 component bpo's.
Not sure of the profits here as I just use this to do t2 production usually in the range of 5%-20%.

T1 ship production of all kinds including freighters - very profitable in quantities.

As already mentioned Low-sec moons are already taken or being fought over constantly. If you found something worth having, someone else would find it worth taking off you.

.
Billy Bob Hatfield
#4 - 2012-02-29 18:46:51 UTC
mxzf wrote:

Second, unless you have the alliance muscle to back it up, a POS can be nothing more than an expensive (for you) target for a random cap fleet to take out due to boredom. It's impossible to defend a POS without a large backing if they want it dead (and tough to defend it even if they're just bored and looking for a POS to take down).


I thought this was the case, but sometimes my delusional half won't listen. Perhaps I need to focus on the hi-sec research station.
Billy Bob Hatfield
#5 - 2012-02-29 18:54:58 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:


Easily making pos fuel costs and 500m profit left over. Hard work however. t2 production clickfest needs fixing ;)

T2 component production (from moon goo) - there are again people who sell perfectly researched t2 component bpo's.
Not sure of the profits here as I just use this to do t2 production usually in the range of 5%-20%.

T1 ship production of all kinds including freighters - very profitable in quantities.

As already mentioned Low-sec moons are already taken or being fought over constantly. If you found something worth having, someone else would find it worth taking off you.


Thanks for the post, it's informative. The T2 production sounds interesting and I can deal with the clickfest. I've masted the turning rocks into T1 items and I need to move beyond that or get really bored soon.
GeneralHalt
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2012-02-29 21:12:31 UTC
mxzf wrote:
There are two issues with the your hopes and dreams of getting rich making moon goo out in lowsec.

First off, all the extremely profitable moons are already taken. Right now about the best moon your could hope for would be to slightly more than pay for your POS fuel bills. If you're importing moon goo from the market and then reacting it, you might make a bit more profit on top of that, but that comes with its own logistical nightmares.

Second, unless you have the alliance muscle to back it up, a POS can be nothing more than an expensive (for you) target for a random cap fleet to take out due to boredom. It's impossible to defend a POS without a large backing if they want it dead (and tough to defend it even if they're just bored and looking for a POS to take down).



Hit it pretty much right on the head there most of good **** already taken up by the big boys.. couple find here and there but all the good moons are gone and have a pretty big force protecting them
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-02-29 21:55:22 UTC
To be fair though, 25% of your profits need to be enough to cover fuel costs, otherwise you could just manufacture at an NPC station for more.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-02-29 21:57:21 UTC
You can make pretty decent ISK by running a low sec reaction POS. That's right, not moon mining but reactions, just reactions. Poke around the forums for resources on calculating reaction profits, you'll see that there are some you can get good returns on.

My experience running a reaction POS about a year has been a pretty mixed bag. On one hand, it was easy money even just buying from sell orders and selling to buy orders. Every month I could pay for the POS fuel several times over in just reaction profit ISK, iirc (Caldari large). However, making the frequent hauler trips to Jita--the only good market for moon goo--got tedious but I knew that every time I didn't make that run when I had to, it meant the POS was burning fuel and not making any money, felt wasteful. The markets do fluctuate so I built the setup in such a way that I could re-configure to another similar reaction quickly when one market wasn't looking too good. The POS itself never had any trouble. I picked a system that had a lot of moons and other towers belonging to many different corps and alliances, with a sufficient number of free moons that evicting someone just for a spot to anchor a POS wouldn't be quite so desirable. A fairly low traffic system, some pirate activity of course, but nothing too troublesome in a blockade runner or with a scout. I also made sure I anchored at a moon with terrible resources Smile The POS setup was such that it could be quickly converted to a dickstar by onlining a bunch of mods and offlining the reaction-related modules. Basically, no one ever bothered me but I was prepared emotionally and financially to lose the POS if someone really wanted to take it down.

Ultimately I stopped running it and took it down because the tedium of having to make regular hauling trips got to me, and I realized that I'm making better money doing stuff that still feels fun to me: invention and manufacturing. It was a great relief when I scooped up that freshly unanchored tower and sold it. But this is just my personal viewpoint, I know that others don't mind it as much. Also, how much you'll have to haul and how often depends on what you're making and how fully you can stock the silos. E.g. if you're reacting nanotransistors or fullerides or other tech-based stuff, you may not have the capital to buy a full silo's worth of platinum technite.

The good thing about a reaction POS is that unless someone wtfpwns you, you aren't losing money unless you can't make enough off the reaction to pay for fuel. That means that if you have the ISK to buy and fit the POS, you can try it out and then just sell it if you hate it.

FWIW, I find that running a smaller high sec research and production POS is pretty much effortless if you enjoy manufacturing and do it profitably.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2012-02-29 21:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
The first two lowsec POS my corp anchored had their warp disruptors incapacitated by battleships within about 4 hours of anchoring, and the towers were later reinforced by dreads within about 24 hours of anchoring, and then destroyed after they came out of reinforcement.

Anchor in hisec if you plan to do research, as you can dedicate all the control tower's CPU and power grid to industry, as the POS doesn't need online defenses until wardec'ed.

Getting corp standing is easy, however it is a huge inconvenience: temporarily remove all members with unacceptable standing for one downtime. Removed members can re-join after that, and then you have the 7 following downtimes to anchor control towers (max 1 per day for a corp, or 5 per day in an alliance).

If nobody in the corp has acceptable standing, you can hire someone to join your corp for a week first. The hired person doesn't need access to anything. If the CEO also has to go because s/he has low standing, they can create a new alt, train Corporation Management 1on the alt, and then make it the interim CEO for the one downtime.

Corp standing is a simple average of the standing of all eligible members. To be eligible, the member must have been in the corp at least 7 days, and must have a non-null standing towards the entity. Non-null means never having standing at all with that entity, as even 0.0 standing counts and will lower the average.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-29 23:20:54 UTC
If you are worried about getting your POS blown up in low-sec, here's a few hints:
1) Do a few days of scouting before you set up your POS
2) Anchor your POS while the system is empty
3a) Don't pick a moon that someone else wants.
3b) Find a system with LOTS of available moons. Don't pick a system where the locals have to blow up a POS when they want to put down a new one.
4) Above all else, don't **** anyone off.
Billy Bob Hatfield
#11 - 2012-03-01 01:53:47 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

If nobody in the corp has acceptable standing, you can hire someone to join your corp for a week first. The hired person doesn't need access to anything. If the CEO also has to go because s/he has low standing, they can create a new alt, train Corporation Management 1on the alt, and then make it the interim CEO for the one downtime.


This never occurred to me. I am close to faction standing after spending a bit on dog tags. I just need some more mission grinding to get me over the top. Hiring someone to goose the standings sounds a whole lot easier.
Billy Bob Hatfield
#12 - 2012-03-01 01:58:44 UTC
Taedrin wrote:

1) Do a few days of scouting before you set up your POS


I've learned this in my time in low sec. It's good to know who the locals are and what they like to do.

Taedrin wrote:

4) Above all else, don't **** anyone off.


The golden rule of EVE I think, that and watch your local. Makes perfect sense what everyone is suggesting.

I think I need to get use to a hi-sec POS first, based on the wise advice given so far. My thanks to the posters for sage advice.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#13 - 2012-03-01 05:43:11 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:

T2 component production (from moon goo) - there are again people who sell perfectly researched t2 component bpo's.
Not sure of the profits here as I just use this to do t2 production usually in the range of 5%-20%.


T2 component production is iffy. A lot of the components sell pretty close to at-cost right now, or with very thin margins, or you only earn 10M/wk by tying up that production slot at a station. Rough estimate is that only about 15% of the 36 different T2 components make 25M plus in profits per week About 20% are slight loses, with the rest in the 1M/wk profit up to 20M/wk profit range. Of course the numbers change from week to week.

I have a Google Docs spreadsheet which lists the 36 components and grabs prices from EC/EMK/EMD price feeds.

You can probably also use the eve-market-guide.com website and look the components up there to get a feel for profitability (or the EveMarketeer website).