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CCP : MACRO BANNINGS

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#121 - 2012-02-29 19:59:47 UTC
arcca jeth wrote:
I Love Boobies wrote:
Who needs Hulkageddon when CCP themselves can cause more tears in one massive wave. Twisted


you call those flapjacks boobies?! you are in dire need of a re-customization appointment


I knew my English lacked of proper terms. Expecially the important ones Lol


Ptraci wrote:

You don't need to prove that you did not cheat. The logs prove that you did, which is why you were banned. Any argument is just you trying to convince CCP that what they read in their logs is not true. But you don't know what is in their logs.


Having (in the past) needed a reimbursement or glitch reverted, I experienced the "our logs show nothing". Sorry but I am not optimist about the logs infallibility.



Therese Ishihara wrote:

All of the bots I've looked at have very specific UI settings that you must have in order for the bots to work. I'm talking book marks, their names, where they point to, window placement, all sorts of crazy things. If a non-bot was using these specific UI settings and their names, it would be one hell of a coincidence.

All it would take for CCP to crack down on bots would be a simple 4 step process:
1.) Find bot software.
2.) Buy it.
3.) Get the UI settings required by the bot in order to work.
4.) Make a DB query.

You could probably get a large number of bot users by simply looking at the bookmarks set by players.


By your description it seems bots work within certain fixed UI settings. But the client does not communicate those settings to the server, it's all client stored.

Of course an unnatural naming for bookmarks (and alts) would be a red flag to say the least.



Micheal Dietrich wrote:

My tools are an email account and a phone. All you have to do is inform the company what you were running at the time you saw the ban message and they can test against those items to see if any trigger. If they can recreate what they were seeing from you with the programs that you describe, then you have done a pretty good job of clearing your name. Common 3rd party programs that I've effect people the most is Fraps and Teamspeak. Gaming keyboards, mice, and nostromo's don't seem to be as much of an issue even though they provide the ability to macro.


And of course they will trust you about what programs you had running when you got banned. Or not?
What botter would tell them "yes I was running bot.exe"?

In fact I dare say that the most defensive approach would be to have an opt in flag to always send CCP the list of processes you have on your computer. I'd enable it ASAP.

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Therese Ishihara
Council of Exiles
Brave Collective
#122 - 2012-02-29 20:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Therese Ishihara
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Therese Ishihara wrote:

All of the bots I've looked at have very specific UI settings that you must have in order for the bots to work. I'm talking book marks, their names, where they point to, window placement, all sorts of crazy things. If a non-bot was using these specific UI settings and their names, it would be one hell of a coincidence.

All it would take for CCP to crack down on bots would be a simple 4 step process:
1.) Find bot software.
2.) Buy it.
3.) Get the UI settings required by the bot in order to work.
4.) Make a DB query.

You could probably get a large number of bot users by simply looking at the bookmarks set by players.


By your description it seems bots work within certain fixed UI settings. But the client does not communicate those settings to the server, it's all client stored.

Of course an unnatural naming for bookmarks (and alts) would be a red flag to say the least.


Wrong.

Also see:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/854144


From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Clearing_the_cache_and_settings

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Clearing_the_cache_and_settings wrote:
What data do I lose when clearing the cache and settings folders?
Cache

Only cached data, which can be retrieved again from the server, are stored in the cache folder. The only exception is the Jukebox playlists which will be removed located under cache\Jukebox as .m3u files.
Settings

All your client-settings are stored in this folder, like video and audio settings, user defined shortcuts, window and overview settings and much more. This also includes the folder-structure for lists like notes, buddies, agents and bookmarks (but the items themselves are saved on the server).
(Player note. You may export your overview settings to an XML file from ingame by rightclicking on the Overview arrow and selecting Export Settings. It will ask you for a name to export the file to and which overview settings to export.)
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#123 - 2012-02-29 20:14:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Micheal Dietrich wrote:

My tools are an email account and a phone. All you have to do is inform the company what you were running at the time you saw the ban message and they can test against those items to see if any trigger. If they can recreate what they were seeing from you with the programs that you describe, then you have done a pretty good job of clearing your name. Common 3rd party programs that I've effect people the most is Fraps and Teamspeak. Gaming keyboards, mice, and nostromo's don't seem to be as much of an issue even though they provide the ability to macro.


And of course they will trust you about what programs you had running when you got banned. Or not?
What botter would tell them "yes I was running bot.exe"?

In fact I dare say that the most defensive approach would be to have an opt in flag to always send CCP the list of processes you have on your computer. I'd enable it ASAP.



I really hope you are just being coy rather than dense here. You do realize that results change when variables change right? If what they test comes up differently from the results they have now either you forgot something or you are hiding something. Better hope you have a good memory.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#124 - 2012-02-29 20:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:

I'm going to play the devils advocate to your advocate.

For starters, permaban =/= all hope is lost. If you can prove without a doubt that it was some background code similar to that of a botting script (though what it could be is beyond me) then you can petition it and get your account back.



How would you prove "without doubt" that you did not cheat? What tools does CCP provide to do so? What tools do you have? None. It's your defaced word against an international corporation.



My tools are an email account and a phone. All you have to do is inform the company what you were running at the time you saw the ban message and they can test against those items to see if any trigger.


WTB: a phone # at CCP that links to customer service/support.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Jita Alt666
#125 - 2012-02-29 20:24:20 UTC
I'm looking forward to the dev blog. I suspect it will own some of the internet security "experts" whose proposals and counters are largely irrelevant.
Therese Ishihara
Council of Exiles
Brave Collective
#126 - 2012-02-29 20:28:02 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I'm looking forward to the dev blog. I suspect it will own some of the internet security "experts" whose proposals and counters are largely irrelevant.


CCP would be dumb to reveal how they detect bots so nobody will ever be proven right or wrong, making you largely irrelevant too :)
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#127 - 2012-02-29 20:31:27 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

WTB: a phone # at CCP that links to customer service/support.



I'm not specifying any one company. I had this issue with Mythic way back in the day. I had downloaded Fraps and was testing it out in player housing in DAOC and apparently some line of code triggered mythics watch program. Account got banned about 2 weeks later and cleared up about a week after that.

In any case, you still have email right?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#128 - 2012-02-29 20:32:07 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Thanks! :)

I'm writing a dev blog in a day or two that will contain some sweet juicy new details.

As regards the timing of this particular wave, let the dudes on FHC know that Fanfest had nothing to do with it. That's a coincidence.

:edit: also the guy above me



Can you guys also like give us the numbers. Like, "X number of boters banned. Y is the amount of isk" kind of statistics? Also, can you give some details why I don't see CCP Globiedy glop in Jita banning the spam botters?
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#129 - 2012-02-29 20:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
That's nice but when will CCP start banning macro chat bots in all the trade hubs. I really never under stood why they turn a blind eye to that.


As bad and annoying as they are, chat bots don't faucet ISK and / or minerals into the system. I suppose that makes them second priority.


The do however faucet ISK into their own wallets and make it harder for legit scammers & marketers to compete. Yes I said legit scammers meaning guys that aren't using macros to pollute Jita local but instead actually work to pull off their scams.

Chribba ran the stats on those guys once a long time ago and posted the info, and it was pretty easy to see that the bulk of the chat spam in trade hub's local channel were spam macro bots. If Chribba can easily write a program that tracks how long each user posted each day as well as how much he posted in local, then I'm pretty sure CCP could do the same.

Best yet CCP doesn't even have to ban them, they can just give them local chat bans.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#130 - 2012-02-29 21:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Latest: Translation from Italian Newspaper (has to do with ban !):

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quilivorno.it%2Fcronaca-nera%2F2-livorno%2F8116-studente-su-internet-qse-mi-buttate-fuori-dal-gioco-mi-uccidoq-dallislanda-scatta-lallarme-a-livorno.html&act=url

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#131 - 2012-02-29 21:28:48 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
Lady Spank wrote:
Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!

You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew!


How about just perma ban them on first strike? instead of the silly 10-14 day slap they get now + not being able to resell them...


I was aiming for something a little more entertaining for the player base but in seriousness, I kind of think a one-time slap on the wrist is ok.... as long as the characters cant be recycled/sold. Like IP tracking and ban all accounts / remove character sale priveliges etc etc. (I know IP bans arent infallible but it catches all current accounts of that person) etc etc.

Uh... this is a brainfart, don't read into it too much.



The references to VMware and virtual machines in the fhc thread indicates possibly a "MAC Address tracking" in use. I knew a craigslist scammer who used to circumvent bans by relying on MAC spoofing and cloning in the router. So there must be some mechanic of botting and banning that revolvED around that. It's not a very sophisticated technique and it should be no surprise when it fails.

But I too am reaching into my arse for reasons and ideas. I just saw the VM references and there must be, or was, something to that.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#132 - 2012-02-29 21:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Therese Ishihara wrote:

Wrong.

Also see:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/854144


From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Clearing_the_cache_and_settings

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Clearing_the_cache_and_settings wrote:
What data do I lose when clearing the cache and settings folders?
Cache

Only cached data, which can be retrieved again from the server, are stored in the cache folder. The only exception is the Jukebox playlists which will be removed located under cache\Jukebox as .m3u files.
Settings

All your client-settings are stored in this folder, like video and audio settings, user defined shortcuts, window and overview settings and much more. This also includes the folder-structure for lists like notes, buddies, agents and bookmarks (but the items themselves are saved on the server).
(Player note. You may export your overview settings to an XML file from ingame by rightclicking on the Overview arrow and selecting Export Settings. It will ask you for a name to export the file to and which overview settings to export.)


I put where the UI settings are stored in italics. They are not sent to the server. As I said.
Bookmarks are server stored though (not their folders, they are also on the client).


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Latest: Translation from Italian Newspaper (has to do with ban !):
Ugly URL


That article in the original tongue has not a lot of sense.
The title says that yesterday night a guy was playing when a moderator kicked him.

It was certainly a ban but not a botter ban, because those are not given in real time.
Also, since he would have to email to communicate, the GM could not be a bot banning GM because otherwise it'd take days to reply not take so short time that the police could get at the banned guy in time to stop him.

I think the guy got a simple "direct GM action" in game local ban / forum ban / griefer ban and he went mental.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#133 - 2012-02-29 21:42:57 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

The references to VMware and virtual machines in the fhc thread indicates possibly a "MAC Address tracking" in use. I knew a craigslist scammer who used to circumvent bans by relying on MAC spoofing and cloning in the router. So there must be some mechanic of botting and banning that revolvED around that. It's not a very sophisticated technique and it should be no surprise when it fails.


I don't have any VMware but I do play up to 4 clients at a time. Does it mean I am at risk of being considered a botter because of the "MAC address tracking"?

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Whiskey Juvenile
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#134 - 2012-02-29 21:55:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Thanks! :)

I'm writing a dev blog in a day or two that will contain some sweet juicy new details.

As regards the timing of this particular wave, let the dudes on FHC know that Fanfest had nothing to do with it. That's a coincidence.

:edit: also the guy above me


CCP Darius Johnson, my security officer!
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#135 - 2012-02-29 22:09:36 UTC
+1 to making banned accounts non-transferablee
(-1 to CCP forums for eating my previous post)

1st offense: 2week ban, characters barred from ever being sold/transferred
2nd offense: perma-ban

Permanent banning on first offenses would make everyone in Eve a potential target of perma-greifing by individuals who know how to "work the system" to their advantage. Hulkageddon would be the least of a miners worries at that point.

Profit favors the prepared
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#136 - 2012-02-29 22:27:13 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

The references to VMware and virtual machines in the fhc thread indicates possibly a "MAC Address tracking" in use. I knew a craigslist scammer who used to circumvent bans by relying on MAC spoofing and cloning in the router. So there must be some mechanic of botting and banning that revolvED around that. It's not a very sophisticated technique and it should be no surprise when it fails.


I don't have any VMware but I do play up to 4 clients at a time. Does it mean I am at risk of being considered a botter because of the "MAC address tracking"?



No but your defense of them is very transparent and I am sorry that your "boss" is going to look at the take and say something like "Hey, it's a little light this week. You holdin' out on me?"

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#137 - 2012-02-29 22:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:



No but your defense of them is very transparent and I am sorry that your "boss" is going to look at the take and say something like "Hey, it's a little light this week. You holdin' out on me?"



Defense of what?

Let me spell it slow so everyone can catch up.

For what I care, botters, macroers, cheaters can all die today.

Though I am against first strike perma ban (notice the FOCUS of the statemtent), because there's no 100% accuracy of detection.

I am also against the fact that in EvE if you were wrongly accused of cheating you have NOTHING to defend yourself with.
In a game centered on griefing, spying and meta gaming, it should just be natural to be given tools to prove your own innocence.

If someone gets accused of a crime IRL he can defend himself, he's given tools to produce reliable proof to convince a judge of his innocence instead.

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Durie
WORLDSTAR HIPHOP
Brotherhood of Spacers
#138 - 2012-02-29 23:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Durie
Evei Shard wrote:
+1 to making banned accounts non-transferablee
(-1 to CCP forums for eating my previous post)

1st offense: 2week ban, characters barred from ever being sold/transferred
2nd offense: perma-ban

Permanent banning on first offenses would make everyone in Eve a potential target of perma-greifing by individuals who know how to "work the system" to their advantage. Hulkageddon would be the least of a miners worries at that point.


I have a feeling I will like whatever solution CCP puts forward, but this one seems pretty solid as well. For the hardcore dude with like a dozen bots, a lock on transfers is as good as a ban since he can't reasonably use a dozen ratting tengu accounts at once. And for more casual first time offenders, it is a good wake up.

Ty for the bot pwnage CCP, keep up the good work.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#139 - 2012-02-29 23:19:44 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:

Permanent banning on first offenses would make everyone in Eve a potential target of perma-greifing by individuals who know how to "work the system" to their advantage. Hulkageddon would be the least of a miners worries at that point.


This.

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Ai Shun
#140 - 2012-02-29 23:37:46 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:


Looking forward to the dev blog. I personally think you should:
A: Remove all supercapitals, owned by players who have accounts caught in the net from the game world.
B: Confiscate without recompense and then recirculate PLEX that have been bought by players who have accounts caught in the net, back into the market at 75% of current market value.

Anyway keep up the good work.

You sound bitter bro....
Did you loose anything ? Bear


I had a corp mate who lost a faction fit paladin to high sec gankers last week - the last assets of note (worth 3bil+) I lost were in 2009 - about the same time you lost lots of yours.


He didn't lose anything. He loosed it. No harm in that, I suppose.

+1 for the Dev Blog. I'd be keen to read it and see some of the publishable details.