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A Semi-Noob with Fitting Questions

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Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-09-21 01:33:04 UTC
The reason I label myself "semi-noob" is for the simple fact that even though I've been around awhile (despite long breaks), I'm still fairly noob-ish as far as fitting goes. I wasn't sure where I should ask this question, but since this forum is all about answering questions, I figured it was the most likely place.

Now, I understand how almost all modules work, but what I'm not so good at is gathering all this information and creating a solid tank and viable DPS for PvE. Highest on my list of questions:

Good minimum DPS and tank numbers (I have EFT, so no problem there) for both BC's and BS's (tech I, not tech II).
Modules to avoid fitting (besides the most obvious; warp scramblers, for instance) when PvEing.
What to start with: Tank or DPS.
How concerned I should be about cap stability (I despise cap boosters, simply because their charges take up so much cargo space).

Any other general advice that isn't glaringly obvious would be appreciated as well, especially pertaining to level 4 missions (once I can afford to buy and fit a BS and have the right standings, this is my short-term plan).

Thanks!

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2011-09-21 05:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Jerek Mothas wrote:

Now, I understand how almost all modules work, but what I'm not so good at is gathering all this information and creating a solid tank and viable DPS for PvE.


It's simple... you want high resistances against the faction you are about to go up against (need to do some looking around for this) and deal the same type of damage against said faction.

Example: I get a mission that pits me against the Angel Cartel. I put on hardeners to boost my resistances against Explosive and Kinetic damage and try to fit ammo and drones that deal in Explosive and Kinetic damage.

Jerek Mothas wrote:

How concerned I should be about cap stability (I despise cap boosters, simply because their charges take up so much cargo space).


Depends. If you are unsure of your abilities then it is a good idea to make your ship cap stable (or close to it). However, this is far from "optimal" as you'll be dedicating much of your ship in aid of your tank at the expense of DPS.

Jerek Mothas wrote:

Any other general advice that isn't glaringly obvious would be appreciated as well, especially pertaining to level 4 missions (once I can afford to buy and fit a BS and have the right standings, this is my short-term plan).


Work on getting a T2 tank first and then work furiously on increasing your damage output as much as possible. When you can kill the rats quickly there will be little need for you to actually tank.


What BS are you looking at to run missions?

How did you Veterans start?
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-09-21 09:35:01 UTC
I always start at Battleclinic, look up the ship in question, examine the ones with the most + votes and then modify to suit using EFT

Battleclinic
Chal0ner
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#4 - 2011-09-21 09:55:34 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
I always start at Battleclinic, look up the ship in question, examine the ones with the most + votes and then modify to suit using EFT

Battleclinic


This.

ShahFluffers wrote:
Work on getting a T2 tank first and then work furiously on increasing your damage output as much as possible. When you can kill the rats quickly there will be little need for you to actually tank.


And this.
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-09-21 17:20:34 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
What BS are you looking at to run missions?


I'm not sure yet. I've been doing fairly well with my longer-ranged fit on my Hurricane (I actually found it on BattleClinic: Hurricane: Dark Fusion Terror), but anything would really work. What I'd like to do, though, is either an autocannon/artillery fit for a Minmatar BS, or possibly a long-range laser fit with an Amarr BS. Missiles just strike me as rather boring, but I'd be willing to sacrifice preference for a good BS fit, if I need to.

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2011-09-21 17:35:11 UTC
Jerek Mothas wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
What BS are you looking at to run missions?


I'm not sure yet. I've been doing fairly well with my longer-ranged fit on my Hurricane (I actually found it on BattleClinic: Hurricane: Dark Fusion Terror), but anything would really work. What I'd like to do, though, is either an autocannon/artillery fit for a Minmatar BS, or possibly a long-range laser fit with an Amarr BS. Missiles just strike me as rather boring, but I'd be willing to sacrifice preference for a good BS fit, if I need to.


One word of advice if you are going for a turret ship -- don't forget the drone skills. The NPCs who use tracking disruptors can be (and often are) incredibly frustrating. Otherwise Amarr battleships are really great.

P.s. Amarr Victor, or something...

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-09-21 17:39:00 UTC
CCP Spitfire wrote:
One word of advice if you are going for a turret ship -- don't forget the drone skills. The NPCs who use tracking disruptors can be (and often are) incredibly frustrating. Otherwise Amarr battleships are really great.

P.s. Amarr Victor, or something...


As a matter of fact, I'm only 4 days away from tech II light and medium drones. (Heavy to come later).

As for that...I'm going to paint every Amarr ship I buy from now on rust-red, just to spite you. Twisted For the Republic!

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2011-09-21 17:40:47 UTC
Jerek Mothas wrote:
CCP Spitfire wrote:
One word of advice if you are going for a turret ship -- don't forget the drone skills. The NPCs who use tracking disruptors can be (and often are) incredibly frustrating. Otherwise Amarr battleships are really great.

P.s. Amarr Victor, or something...


As a matter of fact, I'm only 4 days away from tech II light and medium drones. (Heavy to come later).

As for that...I'm going to paint every Amarr ship I buy from now on rust-red, just to spite you. Twisted For the Republic!


Haha. Smile Touche, good sir.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-09-21 18:12:22 UTC
One other question to pose to all you experts. What's a good number to shoot for as far as withstanding level 4 damage? E.G. how much DPS should I be able to withstand if I want to survive L4's?

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#10 - 2011-09-21 18:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kilrayn
Jerek Mothas wrote:
One other question to pose to all you experts. What's a good number to shoot for as far as withstanding level 4 damage? E.G. how much DPS should I be able to withstand if I want to survive L4's?


Off the top of my head (got all my eve tools on home comp, not work laptop Ugh), I'd say 300-500 depending on the mission. Also...

Eve-survival

Go there for more specific information about each mission. You can control your incoming dps more effectively if you know what group aggroes when, and what the spawn triggers are.

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-09-21 18:33:03 UTC
Kilrayn wrote:
Jerek Mothas wrote:
One other question to pose to all you experts. What's a good number to shoot for as far as withstanding level 4 damage? E.G. how much DPS should I be able to withstand if I want to survive L4's?


Off the top of my head (got all my eve tools on home comp, not work laptop Ugh), I'd say 300-500 depending on the mission. Also...

Eve-survival

Go there for more specific information about each mission. You can control your incoming dps more effectively if you know what group aggroes when, and what the spawn triggers are.


In EFT, is the defence efficiency number the amount of DPS it absorbs, or is that number derived some other way? I found a highly-praised Armageddon fit from Dominion 1.1.1, but the defence efficiency is showing up as 168. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad. (The fit advertised almost 550 DPS in tanking ability.)

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#12 - 2011-09-21 18:52:39 UTC
Not sure about eft, I do my fittings in eveHQ. Try mouse hovering over some numbers to see if you can get some more info that way.

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 - 2011-09-21 18:59:09 UTC
Jerek Mothas wrote:
Kilrayn wrote:
Jerek Mothas wrote:
One other question to pose to all you experts. What's a good number to shoot for as far as withstanding level 4 damage? E.G. how much DPS should I be able to withstand if I want to survive L4's?


Off the top of my head (got all my eve tools on home comp, not work laptop Ugh), I'd say 300-500 depending on the mission. Also...

Eve-survival

Go there for more specific information about each mission. You can control your incoming dps more effectively if you know what group aggroes when, and what the spawn triggers are.


In EFT, is the defence efficiency number the amount of DPS it absorbs, or is that number derived some other way? I found a highly-praised Armageddon fit from Dominion 1.1.1, but the defence efficiency is showing up as 168. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad. (The fit advertised almost 550 DPS in tanking ability.)


OK, I might be completely misunderstanding the question here; if so, my bad. With that in mind, by default EFT shows the "uniform" damage distribution (it assumes that you are dealt damage of all types evenly). If you click on the repairer icon, you can select (or create) your own damage distribution profile; for example, if you are fighting the Sansha's Nation you can input the exact ratios for every type of damage they deal (Sanshas deal EM and Thermal damage; much more detailed information can be found at EVE Survival ). Not many challenges in EVE require you to defend against all types of damage at once (but those that do usually tend to hurt like a metric ton of bricks).

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-09-21 19:04:55 UTC
CCP Spitfire wrote:
Jerek Mothas wrote:
Kilrayn wrote:
Jerek Mothas wrote:
One other question to pose to all you experts. What's a good number to shoot for as far as withstanding level 4 damage? E.G. how much DPS should I be able to withstand if I want to survive L4's?


Off the top of my head (got all my eve tools on home comp, not work laptop Ugh), I'd say 300-500 depending on the mission. Also...

Eve-survival

Go there for more specific information about each mission. You can control your incoming dps more effectively if you know what group aggroes when, and what the spawn triggers are.


In EFT, is the defence efficiency number the amount of DPS it absorbs, or is that number derived some other way? I found a highly-praised Armageddon fit from Dominion 1.1.1, but the defence efficiency is showing up as 168. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad. (The fit advertised almost 550 DPS in tanking ability.)


OK, I might be completely misunderstanding the question here; if so, my bad. With that in mind, by default EFT shows the "uniform" damage distribution (it assumes that you are dealt damage of all types evenly). If you click on the repairer icon, you can select (or create) your own damage distribution profile; for example, if you are fighting the Sansha's Nation you can input the exact ratios for every type of damage they deal (Sanshas deal EM and Thermal damage; much more detailed information can be found at EVE Survival ). Not many challenges in EVE require you to defend against all types of damage at once (but those that do usually tend to hurt like a metric ton of bricks).


What I'm wondering is whether the number it's displaying (in this case, 168) is the actual amount of damage it can tank per second, or if it's something else (which I'm starting to doubt). It could just be the fact that the loadout is from Dominion, and there were nerfs since it was posted.

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#15 - 2011-09-21 19:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Jerek Mothas wrote:
CCP Spitfire wrote:
Jerek Mothas wrote:
Kilrayn wrote:
Jerek Mothas wrote:
One other question to pose to all you experts. What's a good number to shoot for as far as withstanding level 4 damage? E.G. how much DPS should I be able to withstand if I want to survive L4's?


Off the top of my head (got all my eve tools on home comp, not work laptop Ugh), I'd say 300-500 depending on the mission. Also...

Eve-survival

Go there for more specific information about each mission. You can control your incoming dps more effectively if you know what group aggroes when, and what the spawn triggers are.


In EFT, is the defence efficiency number the amount of DPS it absorbs, or is that number derived some other way? I found a highly-praised Armageddon fit from Dominion 1.1.1, but the defence efficiency is showing up as 168. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad. (The fit advertised almost 550 DPS in tanking ability.)


OK, I might be completely misunderstanding the question here; if so, my bad. With that in mind, by default EFT shows the "uniform" damage distribution (it assumes that you are dealt damage of all types evenly). If you click on the repairer icon, you can select (or create) your own damage distribution profile; for example, if you are fighting the Sansha's Nation you can input the exact ratios for every type of damage they deal (Sanshas deal EM and Thermal damage; much more detailed information can be found at EVE Survival ). Not many challenges in EVE require you to defend against all types of damage at once (but those that do usually tend to hurt like a metric ton of bricks).


What I'm wondering is whether the number it's displaying (in this case, 168) is the actual amount of damage it can tank per second, or if it's something else (which I'm starting to doubt). It could just be the fact that the loadout is from Dominion, and there were nerfs since it was posted.


Basically it shows you how much damage per second you would tank if you were dealt 25 percent of each type of damage per second. This rarely happens in PVE; most NPC ships deal only one or two types of damage at once. So if you estimate your tank against those ships, the DPS you can tank becomes significantly higher. As I said, it's pretty much situational.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
Lauren Hellfury
Super Happy Awesome Fun Times
#16 - 2011-09-21 19:13:09 UTC
As a very rough guide try and aim for around 1000 for combined tank and gank. You'll probably start off heavily biased towards the tank part which is fine. As your skills improve you can shift that balance towards gank.

Whilst you dislike cap boosters because of their size (I had similar issues) they really are very useful. My missioning BS now all carry a heavy cap booster and usually 3 reloads of 800s in the hold. You really don't need to carry *that* much ammo. If you are looting and salvaging your missions as well you will find plenty of cap booster 800s in the wrecks and probably won't have to worry about buying and moving them that much.


As far as fitting a BS out I'll guess that you have gone with a shield tank (most 'cane mission fits are) and will recommend the Maelstrom. It has a bonus to shield boost amount and if you pair that with an oversized (xl) booster and a boost amplifier it can really kick out some serious tankage.

I was looking at a fit with just two tech 2 invuls that would tank a little under 1000 dps omni whilst kicking out around 800 (without drones). Sure, that was with faction items and it wasn't even close to cap stable with the heavy cap booster running but hells!


A quick note on using a cap booster with active tank, you will have to get used to how quickly your tank can regen the shields. When you're used to that I'd normally let my shields drop to around 30% or so and then switch the tank on and leave it on until I hit about 35% cap remaining. This should usually give you a reasonable amount of shields back and leave your cap near to peak recharge. You can then either pulse the booster as your cap regens, keeping it around the 35% mark or turn on the cap booster and activate the tank again when the second charge is about to be injected. You can then leave the tank running until the cap booster is out of charges.

Also, autocannons and AB ftw!

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Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-09-21 19:22:26 UTC
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
As a very rough guide try and aim for around 1000 for combined tank and gank. You'll probably start off heavily biased towards the tank part which is fine. As your skills improve you can shift that balance towards gank.

Whilst you dislike cap boosters because of their size (I had similar issues) they really are very useful. My missioning BS now all carry a heavy cap booster and usually 3 reloads of 800s in the hold. You really don't need to carry *that* much ammo. If you are looting and salvaging your missions as well you will find plenty of cap booster 800s in the wrecks and probably won't have to worry about buying and moving them that much.


As far as fitting a BS out I'll guess that you have gone with a shield tank (most 'cane mission fits are) and will recommend the Maelstrom. It has a bonus to shield boost amount and if you pair that with an oversized (xl) booster and a boost amplifier it can really kick out some serious tankage.

I was looking at a fit with just two tech 2 invuls that would tank a little under 1000 dps omni whilst kicking out around 800 (without drones). Sure, that was with faction items and it wasn't even close to cap stable with the heavy cap booster running but hells!


A quick note on using a cap booster with active tank, you will have to get used to how quickly your tank can regen the shields. When you're used to that I'd normally let my shields drop to around 30% or so and then switch the tank on and leave it on until I hit about 35% cap remaining. This should usually give you a reasonable amount of shields back and leave your cap near to peak recharge. You can then either pulse the booster as your cap regens, keeping it around the 35% mark or turn on the cap booster and activate the tank again when the second charge is about to be injected. You can then leave the tank running until the cap booster is out of charges.

Also, autocannons and AB ftw!


I've just had a tendency to do looting and salvaging with the same ship I do the missions with, but I have a hauling Mammoth with a tractor and salvager to do the job now. I just don't like depending on a limited resource to keep me alive.

I actually found an awesome ARMOR tank for the Cane. Works like a charm. I rarely go lower than 90% armor. But I'll keep that in mind if I need to use a shield tank in the future.

Agreed. Although my Cane with an AB and artillery cannons at about 20km can eat through pretty much anything in L3's.

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#18 - 2011-09-21 19:27:44 UTC
You may want to eventually train up for shields. One big reason (aside from having the option of both) is that gunnery upgrade mods are mostly low slots, same as your armor tanking mods. Shield tanking will let you fit gyros and tracking enhancers, which are sexy.

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-21 19:30:10 UTC
Kilrayn wrote:
You may want to eventually train up for shields. One big reason (aside from having the option of both) is that gunnery upgrade mods are mostly low slots, same as your armor tanking mods. Shield tanking will let you fit gyros and tracking enhancers, which are sexy.


I can use pretty much all tech II modules (aside from a select few, and all tech II guns (except small ones) and missiles). It's mostly that I don't know the nuances of compiling them all into a solid (and affordable) fit. I agree with you, though.

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
Jerek Mothas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-09-21 19:38:57 UTC
Well...that explains it. Creating a damage profile and fitting the right damage types brought it up to 466.

Failfitting ships since 2007.

"Those who control their tongue will have a long life; opening your mouth can ruin everything." - Solomon
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