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The business case for removing the NeX

Author
Gordon Fell
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-02-29 13:43:40 UTC
The NeX store obfuscates what EVE in it's core is about (people build what people use), so in relation to expectation management (you know, the thing CCP as a whole is exceptionally bad at), especially with new players, you'll attract the wrong audience (which will leave disillusioned, in the wake of social media not the best thing that can happen), and the right audience is sidetracked, resulting in poor gameplay (both by the empty promise that is Incarna, as well as missing the potential insight and opportunities of the actual game).
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#142 - 2012-02-29 13:51:29 UTC
Gordon Fell wrote:
The NeX store obfuscates what EVE in it's core is about (people build what people use), so in relation to expectation management (you know, the thing CCP as a whole is exceptionally bad at), especially with new players, you'll attract the wrong audience (which will leave disillusioned, in the wake of social media not the best thing that can happen), and the right audience is sidetracked, resulting in poor gameplay (both by the empty promise that is Incarna, as well as missing the potential insight and opportunities of the actual game).


So is EVE about spaceships or clothes fashion?

We don't make skill book we don't make BPOs that are seeded on the market. So not everything is player made.


Clothes from NeX hardly effects the core of EVE. If it was ammo and ships from the NeX then I'd agree with you.


RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2012-02-29 14:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Sasha Azala wrote:


It does not matter if it's NeX store or NPCs it amounts to the same thing as far as the issue of BPCs go. It's just somewhere to purchase a BPC without any player being involved other than the buyer.

Is there really a thin air problem, we've had clothes for years, only difference is you can now alter your appearance. Nobody has worried about it before.

Makes me wonder if a few players just see it as an easy way to make isk.



Edit: Some people buy clothes so their characters look more exclusive. If BPCs are cheap and easy to get and easy to make, nothing will be exclusive. If they're hard to obtain and difficult to make then a few players will take over the market.

From the NeX, you can keep things exclusive without giving a nice big cash-cow to a few players.


Its very different. Buying NEX items currently has the magic into existence with no other player input.

First off we have not had purchasable and trade able clothing for years. That's a blatant falsehood.

Second a BPC needs input from other players to be put ot use. Such as minerals or invention etc.

Other items being seeded like meta 0 items and basic skill books are just a fundamental for the game to have a starting point. But most of those items can be made and sold for less the the seeded prices for a profit.

A BPC that needs Player made items to make the clothing makes it part of the game. And is no different at that point then a BPC from and LP store Or NPC seeded other then CCP gets some cash in pocket from a MT of a plex being consumed to get aurum. It would require other player input and actions to make it useful.

What you are trying to say so Hamfistedtedly assert as a point is in very different from how the actual game and mechanics work.

Your reasoning skills and logic are so out of whack its not even funny.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#144 - 2012-02-29 14:26:58 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:


It does not matter if it's NeX store or NPCs it amounts to the same thing as far as the issue of BPCs go. It's just somewhere to purchase a BPC without any player being involved other than the buyer.

Is there really a thin air problem, we've had clothes for years, only difference is you can now alter your appearance. Nobody has worried about it before.

Makes me wonder if a few players just see it as an easy way to make isk.



Edit: Some people buy clothes so their characters look more exclusive. If BPCs are cheap and easy to get and easy to make, nothing will be exclusive. If they're hard to obtain and difficult to make then a few players will take over the market.

From the NeX, you can keep things exclusive without giving a nice big cash-cow to a few players.


Its very different. Buying NEX items currently has the magic into existence with no other player input.

First off we have not had purchasable and trade able clothing for years. That's a blatant falsehood.

Second a BPC needs input from other players to be put ot use. Such as minerals or invention etc.

Other items being seeded like meta 0 items and basic skill books are just a fundamental for the game to have a starting point. But most of those items can be made and sold for less the the seeded prices for a profit.

A BPC that needs Player made items to make the clothing makes it part of the game. And is no different at that point then a BPC from and LP store Or NPC seeded other then CCP gets some cash in pocket from a MT of a plex being consumed to get aurum. It would require other player input and actions to make it useful.

What you are trying to say so Hamfistedtedly assert as a point is in very different from how the actual game and mechanics work.

Your reasoning skills and logic are so out of whack its not even funny.



I see the NeX just as a clothes shop it does not need to have player made content. You start your character with multiple footwear, pants, tops that have magically appeared as you put it.

I can't think of any trade able prior to the NeX and would not count implants as clothes.

If you don't like none player items that magically appear, then you better get rid of the LP stores as nothing from there is player made.

I know what BPCs/BPOs are and what's involved in making something, I'm just saying it's unnecessary as far as clothes are concerned.
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#145 - 2012-02-29 14:30:52 UTC
Quote:
Just curious how many hundred pages you had to go back to find this thread to drag back from the dead?

It's alive... ALIVE!! Not that I'm complaining :), CCP may have for the moment switched focus to placating their player base. Yet the fight against MT must continue, otherwise I guarantee EvE will slide right down it.

Quote:
I don't see how you can be anti NeX and pro PLEX (or at least indifferent about PLEX) as PLEX is more game altering than NeX.

Interestingly, there was quite a debate about the introduction of PLEX back in the day, about how it would eventually become a slippery slope. Here we are, sliding. I wouldn't say I'm completely in favour of PLEX. However I think its a fairly EvE like way of providing structure to the influence of real world money (which itself is inevitable). Other than the market incentives created, PLEX are not gameplay affecting, they don't create anything.

Quote:
Edit: Some people buy clothes so their characters look more exclusive.

Newsflash, (almost) nothing in EvE is exclusive, that fact is pretty core to EvE gameplay.

Gordon Fell wrote:
The NeX store obfuscates what EVE in it's core is about (people build what people use), so in relation to expectation management (you know, the thing CCP as a whole is exceptionally bad at), especially with new players, you'll attract the wrong audience (which will leave disillusioned, in the wake of social media not the best thing that can happen), and the right audience is sidetracked, resulting in poor gameplay (both by the empty promise that is Incarna, as well as missing the potential insight and opportunities of the actual game).

Well said, this is the kernel of everything I have said previously on this topic in a few sentences.
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#146 - 2012-02-29 14:42:06 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
Quote:
I don't see how you can be anti NeX and pro PLEX (or at least indifferent about PLEX) as PLEX is more game altering than NeX.

Interestingly, there was quite a debate about the introduction of PLEX back in the day, about how it would eventually become a slippery slope. Here we are, sliding. I wouldn't say I'm completely in favour of PLEX. However I think its a fairly EvE like way of providing structure to the influence of real world money (which itself is inevitable). Other than the market incentives created, PLEX are not gameplay affecting, they don't create anything.

Quote:
Edit: Some people buy clothes so their characters look more exclusive.

Newsflash, (almost) nothing in EvE is exclusive, that fact is pretty core to EvE gameplay.



PLEX don't create anything ingame except they do transfer isk to people using initial external means. So they do have an effect on the game play.

There's some pretty rare ships knocking about in EVE, I'd say that makes them pretty exclusive.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#147 - 2012-02-29 14:52:26 UTC
Ottersmacker wrote:
Why not let CCP have income from those willing to spend on NeX as long as it stays vanity and actual game development isn't hindered?

I have never bought an item from NeX, because they have yet to hit the sweet spot for my space vanity fantasies.
I suppose a Jack-O'-Lantern-paintjob Brutix might do the trick..


Why i am denied feature such as clothing creation when i play full subscription.

There cant be both ways.


Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2012-02-29 15:01:04 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
Covert Kitty wrote:
Quote:
I don't see how you can be anti NeX and pro PLEX (or at least indifferent about PLEX) as PLEX is more game altering than NeX.

Interestingly, there was quite a debate about the introduction of PLEX back in the day, about how it would eventually become a slippery slope. Here we are, sliding. I wouldn't say I'm completely in favour of PLEX. However I think its a fairly EvE like way of providing structure to the influence of real world money (which itself is inevitable). Other than the market incentives created, PLEX are not gameplay affecting, they don't create anything.

Quote:
Edit: Some people buy clothes so their characters look more exclusive.

Newsflash, (almost) nothing in EvE is exclusive, that fact is pretty core to EvE gameplay.



PLEX don't create anything ingame except they do transfer isk to people using initial external means. So they do have an effect on the game play.

There's some pretty rare ships knocking about in EVE, I'd say that makes them pretty exclusive.


PLEX creates "free" game time for those who dont want to / can not pay in real money. That's why people dont have a problem with PLEX. I know some people who have or have had financial trouble IRL and have paid for their eve habit in ISK.

NeX / AUR / MT on the other hand is just useless bullshit that makes us into a cashcow and derails CCP from EVE itself. Also I think it's worth mentioning that every time someone buys a PLEX, someone else doesnt pay for their subscription.

I've never sold or used a PLEX myself and I dont really care about them but I do see their function in EVE and I dont have a problem with them. PLEX is just a tool through which player A can pay for player B's subscription and both parties benefit from it. It's about subscriptions.

NeX has nothing to do with subscriptions and as long as EVE is a subscription based game there should be no MT / NeX in EVE.

That's how I see it anyway.
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#149 - 2012-02-29 15:12:43 UTC
Quote:
PLEX don't create anything ingame except they do transfer isk to people using initial external means. So they do have an effect on the game play.

Which is an effect that exists regardless of what CCP does. So it's reasonable to instead create a structure to control it, rather than banning it outright. PLEX is possibly the lesser of two inevitable evils in this regard.

Quote:
There's some pretty rare ships knocking about in EVE, I'd say that makes them pretty exclusive.

Which is why I prefixed that with (almost). The things in EvE that are actually exclusive, are objects of historic interest (like Chribba's veldnaught) or real achievement (like winners of alliance tournys).
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#150 - 2012-02-29 15:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
Bischopt wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Covert Kitty wrote:
Quote:
I don't see how you can be anti NeX and pro PLEX (or at least indifferent about PLEX) as PLEX is more game altering than NeX.

Interestingly, there was quite a debate about the introduction of PLEX back in the day, about how it would eventually become a slippery slope. Here we are, sliding. I wouldn't say I'm completely in favour of PLEX. However I think its a fairly EvE like way of providing structure to the influence of real world money (which itself is inevitable). Other than the market incentives created, PLEX are not gameplay affecting, they don't create anything.

Quote:
Edit: Some people buy clothes so their characters look more exclusive.

Newsflash, (almost) nothing in EvE is exclusive, that fact is pretty core to EvE gameplay.



PLEX don't create anything ingame except they do transfer isk to people using initial external means. So they do have an effect on the game play.

There's some pretty rare ships knocking about in EVE, I'd say that makes them pretty exclusive.


PLEX creates "free" game time for those who dont want to / can not pay in real money. That's why people dont have a problem with PLEX. I know some people who have or have had financial trouble IRL and have paid for their eve habit in ISK.

NeX / AUR / MT on the other hand is just useless bullshit that makes us into a cashcow and derails CCP from EVE itself. Also I think it's worth mentioning that every time someone buys a PLEX, someone else doesnt pay for their subscription.

I've never sold or used a PLEX myself and I dont really care about them but I do see their function in EVE and I dont have a problem with them. PLEX is just a tool through which player A can pay for player B's subscription and both parties benefit from it. It's about subscriptions.

NeX has nothing to do with subscriptions and as long as EVE is a subscription based game there should be no MT / NeX in EVE.

That's how I see it anyway.




It's ok I'm not having a go at PLEX, just saying that they do effect game play whereas clothes through NeX do not (unless you count the fact you can't make them, I don't).

I've purchased at least 8 PLEXes so I could not have a go at them even if I wanted to, which of course, I don't. Never had anything from NeX but then there's not much there anyway.
Plyn
Uncharted.
#151 - 2012-02-29 16:25:22 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Jack Traynor wrote:
And if CCP compared the list of credit devices & accounts subscribed against those of the failquitters, wanna bet what that delta would yield?

I'd just about guarantee those failquitters really WERE fail-quitters, as in they still play.

CCP makes money on the NeX crap, and it's not going anywhere. They will find new ways to make real money, and will exploit it. It's the way the business model works.


So you don't believe that a large number of eve players unsubbed over the NeXCarna fiasco then?

And you believe that CCP do actually make money on NeX taking into consideration accounts dropped citing NeX MT in a subscription game as a reason?

Hmmm,

Let me tell you about business "models".

Business models that work involve selling something to a customer base that the customers in question want. Prior to NeXCarna we had some exhaustive crowd-sourced polls that showed quite convincingly that the Eve player base did not want MTbased content behind $ payalls in this subscription based MMO.

The "industry experts" (at that time) refused to listen.

The unsub crisis was the result.


Would you mind posting real numbers, with citations, detailing exactly how many fewer active accounts there are now than there were before "incarnagate"? If you want to make these kinds of arguments, you need to be concise.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#152 - 2012-02-29 16:29:26 UTC
it took me some time to see the danger of Nex, no I do not care about game breaking issues.

What me concerns is that until the Nex introduction you as the paying (subscribing) customer had potential access to ALL features of EVE. Nex is changing that and what worries me is where it will stop, now its clothes, tomorrow it might be ship skins and what will it be next year, changing your name, additional alts, better graphics, ingame services, additional HUD features?

The problem I have is that I am paying a monthly subscription (actually 2) for the game and for that I want to have access to all features of EVE, this full access is removed by the NEX, therefore I totally agree with the OP.

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#153 - 2012-02-29 16:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Ughn ><

Points at world of warcraft. Which at the rate its going will surpass the nex total cost but its the better example of the two.

Everquest 2 which was pay to play I belive, did offer combat + mounts while paying subscription.

Then points at Allonds Online which cash shopped for every wow feature you can think of (new talent points extra bag slots basically YOU CANNOT PLAY WITHOUT PAYING)

Points at Plex for Fan Fest.

Points at Plex for Red Cross.

Points at the possibility of Eve Store items for plex.

Now Changing Names is a seperate issue, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN according to CCP.

Face changing and was a pay for service in the past. My hope is if they reintroduce it to allow race/gender as well. Many games offer this service as a paid service.

ALTs another topic, was pertty much hardlined at 3 character slots a character with only 1 active training queue.

Its our job to keep remining ccp what constitues an non vanity feature. The additional 'hud' features are likely to be pernamently free features of new eden and in past cases shoved down your throat if you like it or not.

Newer graphics... lets take HD nebulas as an example, we havent seen what eve has yet to offer concerning that.

I say keep the nex remull over how to work with aurum and the sorts but it would serve a much more cost effective means of donating plexes to future disasters to the red cross by oh say offering a useless tshirt as a testament saying oh I helped save the world.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Plyn
Uncharted.
#154 - 2012-02-29 16:52:58 UTC
Lharanai wrote:
it took me some time to see the danger of Nex, no I do not care about game breaking issues.

What me concerns is that until the Nex introduction you as the paying (subscribing) customer had potential access to ALL features of EVE. Nex is changing that and what worries me is where it will stop, now its clothes, tomorrow it might be ship skins and what will it be next year, changing your name, additional alts, better graphics, ingame services, additional HUD features?

The problem I have is that I am paying a monthly subscription (actually 2) for the game and for that I want to have access to all features of EVE, this full access is removed by the NEX, therefore I totally agree with the OP.

All players have full access to NEX.

I don't see how people can't make the connection between PLEX and aurum. I felt CCP's cyclic picture they posted made it pretty clear. You can buy PLEX off the market with ISK, and break it into aurum. Thus, anyone who makes enough ISK to buy PLEXes makes enough ISK to eventually buy whatever they desire from NEX.

I can only assume that anyone unable to make this connection has completely failed to research the subject at all.

The only difference between the person spending RL cash on the PLEXes to break into aurum, and the person purchasing PLEX from the market to break into aurum is the amount of effort involved. Not really any different between the person buying PLEXes off the market having to expend effort for game time while people who spend RL cash on PLEX to sell in-game don't have to expend any effort on funding their shinies.

Interestingly, a lot of the people speculating on PLEX prices fail to consider the old veterans busting huge amounts of PLEXes with their trillions of ISK to buy monocles to troll people who don't understand the system.

Even if everything on the NEX were changed to have a direct ISK method of purchase (which is unnecessary, because there is already a means of converting ISK to aurum), people would still buy PLEX and sell them on the market to get the ISK for their boots. Nothing would change except the price of PLEX would plummet, instead of rising.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#155 - 2012-02-29 20:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lharanai
Plyn wrote:
Lharanai wrote:
it took me some time to see the danger of Nex, no I do not care about game breaking issues.

What me concerns is that until the Nex introduction you as the paying (subscribing) customer had potential access to ALL features of EVE. Nex is changing that and what worries me is where it will stop, now its clothes, tomorrow it might be ship skins and what will it be next year, changing your name, additional alts, better graphics, ingame services, additional HUD features?

The problem I have is that I am paying a monthly subscription (actually 2) for the game and for that I want to have access to all features of EVE, this full access is removed by the NEX, therefore I totally agree with the OP.

All players have full access to NEX.

I don't see how people can't make the connection between PLEX and aurum. I felt CCP's cyclic picture they posted made it pretty clear. You can buy PLEX off the market with ISK, and break it into aurum. Thus, anyone who makes enough ISK to buy PLEXes makes enough ISK to eventually buy whatever they desire from NEX.

I can only assume that anyone unable to make this connection has completely failed to research the subject at all.

The only difference between the person spending RL cash on the PLEXes to break into aurum, and the person purchasing PLEX from the market to break into aurum is the amount of effort involved. Not really any different between the person buying PLEXes off the market having to expend effort for game time while people who spend RL cash on PLEX to sell in-game don't have to expend any effort on funding their shinies.

Interestingly, a lot of the people speculating on PLEX prices fail to consider the old veterans busting huge amounts of PLEXes with their trillions of ISK to buy monocles to troll people who don't understand the system.

Even if everything on the NEX were changed to have a direct ISK method of purchase (which is unnecessary, because there is already a means of converting ISK to aurum), people would still buy PLEX and sell them on the market to get the ISK for their boots. Nothing would change except the price of PLEX would plummet, instead of rising.


you are right, but I tell you how I see what actually can happen, a lot of players are not willing to grind these enormous amounts ISK for Plex for NEX, but if the NEX store includes item which are attracting...these players will plex (e.g. Ship skins) and therefore paying extra for something which should be included in your subscription fee.

And as the extra income from the Plex will be tempting for CCP I am afraid that they can not resist to put more and more stuff in the NEX store...that is what I don't like:

before Nex all features in expansions have been directly accessible to you

after Nex, more casual players or low ISK players (yes they exist not everything in EVE is about having a big wallet) will have to pay an additional fee for features of an expansion

Edit: I personally would more agree with a raise in the subscription fee

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#156 - 2012-02-29 20:06:42 UTC
Quote:
I don't see how people can't make the connection between PLEX and aurum. I felt CCP's cyclic picture they posted made it pretty clear. You can buy PLEX off the market with ISK, and break it into aurum. Thus, anyone who makes enough ISK to buy PLEXes makes enough ISK to eventually buy whatever they desire from NEX.

I can only assume that anyone unable to make this connection has completely failed to research the subject at all.


Everyone understands that, what makes you think they don't? That fact has no bearing on the arguments put forward by this thread. The central issue is the fact that anything handled through MT / NeX is something that is denied any associated gameplay. I'm completely for character customization, and I'm fine with various in game items being expensive, but they should be derived from game content, not popped into existence by throwing money at ccp (regardless of if your buying those plex from another player or not).

One poster above questioned how much the NeX fiasco hurt CCP's bottom line. Well to that I would say, sure, we don't know specific figures, CCP hasn't released any to my knowledge. That said, after CCP has laid off 30% of their workforce, put WoD on hold, put further Incarna development on hold, admitted they were wrong several times over, refocused on space (or as some of us would call it, EvE), and witnessing a clear decline in the subscriber base evidenced by population graphs..... Do you REALLY think that fiasco didn't hurt them? Common seriously? Obviously it was a pretty big deal.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#157 - 2012-02-29 20:11:24 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ottersmacker wrote:
Why not let CCP have income from those willing to spend on NeX as long as it stays vanity and actual game development isn't hindered?


How can it not be? It takes people programming content to make stuff for MT sale. Lets say the engine trails form the last patch were one such "vanity" development and you now had to pay 3600 aurum to enable them on a specific ship. Our subscription money payed the artist / developer in question to enable this "vanity" feature. It took time that could have been spent on stuff that would actually come with the client we pay a subscription for.

But that statment there is a huge assumption. If the developer wasn't working on the vanity items, who says he would be working on something "more important"? Maybe he would simply be unemployed?

It's like the people who always complain about paying taxes. They assume if the government wasn't spenging tax money on military weapons to kill people, they would have more to feed the poor. As if the poor would actually get that money ever...
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#158 - 2012-02-29 20:33:11 UTC
Quote:
If the developer wasn't working on the vanity items, who says he would be working on something "more important"? Maybe he would simply be unemployed?

Q: Do I care if a developer hired to create a feature (NeX), that harms the game that I like and pay for is laid off?
A: On the contrary, if they became redundant I would welcome that decision, as was the case with 30% of their workforce recently. I pay to play and fund the development of EvE, so if they are doing things I don't like, then I'm happy to use that opportunity to cancel some of my subs. (I had canceled 2/4 of mine back then, I'm back up to 3 at the moment)

Quote:
It's like the people who always complain about paying taxes. They assume if the government wasn't spenging tax money on military weapons to kill people, they would have more to feed the poor. As if the poor would actually get that money ever...

If your talking about the USA, we borrow and print most of the money we need to finance our foreign adventures. The effect of that sooner or later is rapid inflation. The poor & middle class are not hedged against this as well as the rich tend to be. Wages do not generally increase at a rate that compensates fully for those price increases, and higher taxes as a general rule do not help job growth. Lastly, these days most military spending goes to a limited number of vendors, so fewer people are involved in the cycle than would be under a more normal economy. So all in all, yes, it is very bad for the poor and middle class.
Qin Shi Huang
Doomheim
#159 - 2012-03-03 17:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Qin Shi Huang
Covert Kitty wrote:
Quote:
Just curious how many hundred pages you had to go back to find this thread to drag back from the dead?

It's alive... ALIVE!! Not that I'm complaining :), CCP may have for the moment switched focus to placating their player base. Yet the fight against MT must continue, otherwise I guarantee EvE will slide right down it.



of course it's alive - the thread might be temporarily inactive, but the issue will not go away. An open NEX store is an everyday reminder of the Incarnage failure and a temptation to the marketing nimwits. It needs to be removed, deleted,ganked, burned and looted from exsistence. No middle way on this one.

Jade Constantine - help me out with some eloquent arguments on this one.

.

Lt Angus
Goat Herders
#160 - 2012-03-05 08:04:57 UTC
get rid of it quick, gold stores are a sign of a dieing game and we dont want to give new players that impression