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Incursion Legion VS Incursion Absolution
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E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#1 - 2012-02-27 14:56:19 UTC
What Fit would FC and fleets like more?

Quote:
[Legion, Incursion Runner]
Energized Thermic Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M

Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers


VS


Quote:
[Absolution, Incursion Absolution]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
'Malkuth' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I

Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Medium Energy Burst Aerator I

Hobgoblin II

Faction items to swap out t2 as my isk increases starting witht he heat sinks.

The legion had more range and a faster lock time with a better tank and sig radius.
The abso does more damage and is faster.

Shoudl the abso drop the AB? Is the legion just better no matter what? In put is great.
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#2 - 2012-02-28 03:23:11 UTC
WOW not a single post..not even a flame?
Odd
OfBalance
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-02-28 03:47:53 UTC
[Legion, Better than Chicken]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II

Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
M'pact
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-28 04:31:18 UTC
In most cases the Legion will get more fleets.

The faction item you should start with is a web. Get a Federation Navy or True Sansha. After that, go for heat sinks.

And yes, drop the afterburner from that Abso fit. Moving does bad things for tracking, making you do less damage. Replace it with a ScanRes-scripted Sensor Booster II.

When I finally do make an impact on this universe, it will reverberate across the entirety of it, and no one will be able to truthfully claim they don't know me. - -

Until then, I'll just sit quietly over here, minding my own business...
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-02-28 04:59:56 UTC
what I would run for both (note, can swap out mids for webs as needed, it depends upon the fleet)

[Legion, Incursion]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Thermic Membrane
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Auto Targeting System II

Medium Energy Burst Aerator II
Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I

Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

[Absolution, Incursion]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Auto Targeting System II

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II

comparing the two, the legion wins on range, locktime, speed. The absolution wins on dps and tank. But, the range difference is big enough that the legion wins dps wise at 14km and at 20km (ranges for NCO's and NMC's). The extra range also makes a difference in applying dps as ships come in from the spawn point. All this leads to better applied dps and sites cleared faster. Oh, and if anyone says something about the legion fit... it only really works if you have armor links, but being able to lock 8 targets instead of 5 is worth loosing a little bit of EHP depending upon what types of fleets you fly with - and I tended to fly with fleets that the ease of applying dps is worth it.

-Arazel
McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#6 - 2012-02-28 10:35:15 UTC
If you replace the afterburner on the Abso with a 3rd tracking comp, wouldn't the range be exactly enough? I did some vanguards with the Abso a while ago and I remember them frigs flying exactly in range of my Abso and it had only 2 tracking comps fitted....

I tend to go with Abso if you have command ship V and flying in random fleets, it is tankier and does more DPS with lower range but should still be enough for vanguards at least.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#7 - 2012-02-28 11:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Oh, and if anyone says something about the legion fit... it only really works if you have armor links, but being able to lock 8 targets instead of 5 is worth loosing a little bit of EHP depending upon what types of fleets you fly with - and I tended to fly with fleets that the ease of applying dps is worth it.
But you haven't traded EHP, you've traded DPS, that missing low should be a heatsink, and your stacking-penalised 4th TC a scan-res-scripted SeBo. You'll do more dps, and be able to lock things before they're volleyed in a full legion contest.

A very pimped Abso recieving optimal links from Oneiros as well as some remote sensor boosting can on paper out-dps a legion in NCOs. But it requires that RSB chain and is very gimped in NMCs, let alone a liability in OTAs. When you're doing a full NCO blitz and whole waves are being sniped at 30+km, the Abso isn't working for you.
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#8 - 2012-02-28 20:12:26 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Oh, and if anyone says something about the legion fit... it only really works if you have armor links, but being able to lock 8 targets instead of 5 is worth loosing a little bit of EHP depending upon what types of fleets you fly with - and I tended to fly with fleets that the ease of applying dps is worth it.
But you haven't traded EHP, you've traded DPS, that missing low should be a heatsink, and your stacking-penalised 4th TC a scan-res-scripted SeBo. You'll do more dps, and be able to lock things before they're volleyed in a full legion contest.

A very pimped Abso recieving optimal links from Oneiros as well as some remote sensor boosting can on paper out-dps a legion in NCOs. But it requires that RSB chain and is very gimped in NMCs, let alone a liability in OTAs. When you're doing a full NCO blitz and whole waves are being sniped at 30+km, the Abso isn't working for you.


that fit arazel posted doesn't HAVE a 4th penalized comp. its got 3 on range and one on tracking. they arent boosting the same stats, so they arent stacking each other.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#9 - 2012-02-28 21:18:53 UTC
Yes but it's still a weaker bonus than instead recieving Oneiros Tracking Links - you wouldn't want your logis trying to give RSB if they could give bonused TLs, and there's usually 1-2 Locus rigs on blitz legions so your TCs will stack against local mods either way. In his fit it's true it'll work but it's overall sub-optimal imho.

Stacking the 4th HS proves to be worth the tradeoff when the absolute dps figure is 860-1000, and you need the scan res to apply any damage for your fleet in top contests.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-29 15:41:45 UTC
And precisely why is a scan res script needed on a legion that has the tactical targeting network subsystem, and a scan res (when in fleet with someone who has leadership 5) of 613? That would be a 4.3s lock time on a capsule, or a 3.4s locktime on a standard frigate. This is MORE than made up for the fact that having the autotargeter on there raises your max locked targets up to 8, meaning that you can lock an entire NCO wave instead of desperately clicking lock to keep up with things dying so fast. A scan res scrip will boost your sensor resolution up to 981, which brings your locktime down to 2.1s - a 1 second advantage, and even if things are dying fast in an NCO, I guarantee that 1s isn't going to make a difference, compared to having extra tracking to be able to actually hit targets hard, like you're supposed to.

Also, did you notice the rigs? First you claim that there is too much stack nerfing going on in the midslots with tracking, then proceed to say there is not enough going on in the lowslots? You DO realize that extra tracking is essentially extra dps, right? Oh, and as for onerios links - if your onerios pilots aren't complete tards, they will bring along 1 of each script for each link they carry - have them toss a tracking speed script on the legion instead of range. Additionally, I promise you there is enough stack nerfing going on between 3 HS's and a t2 burst areator rig to make a 4th heatsink somewhat impractical. But, if you know for sure that you are flying with maxed out ganglinks, you CAN drop the resist mod for a heatsink and replace the anti-kinetic pump with an anti-thermic one and scuzz by.

But in the final say, they are mids. You can swap them out whenever you want. But the only thing that you should really be swapping them out for are fed navy webs, which can provide a real, noticible impact to your fleets effective dps (even with medium gun tracking) rather than a sensor booster that provides you a mere second locktime advantage.

-Arazel
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#11 - 2012-02-29 16:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
When 9 legions can lock and volley a whole wave before a BS/CS can get one lock, they'll win sites and isk. If we're against larger guns or just average legions we know they'll go for the furthest frigs of a spawn to help their tracking, so if we take them out near-instantly they're left with a few targets that they can't track as well (in the vs BS case) and then soon it's repeated.

We had our 3TC 1 web legions doing well, then rival fleets wised up and we get smoked if we weren't in the site very early because of them using sebos, so we've switched it up to sebos too.

I wasn't implying you'd keep the dps rig, and I'm fully aware tracking is more dps, but being as how lasers have minimal falloff, being able to use INMF/Conflag more often thanks to optimal boosts gives even more applied dps than upping the tracking on Scorch.
You really don't need maxed ganklinks or even a T2 thermic rig to tank NCOs with 2 Oneiros.
Paper tracking counts for nothing if the target's EHP has been alpha'd before you score any damage done.

The web has always been very useful for the Legion, and for clearing uncontested sites it's a no-brainer, but in contests I'm see it barely get a chance to take effect, or worse your first volley doesn't benefit at all, and then the target's killed by the opposition after you've slowed it for them you but can't get a second volley off in time.