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Supercap Reballancing
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Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#141 - 2012-02-28 23:51:02 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:

There is no way to prepare for, or counter, a super cap blob that is bigger than your own.


This is a lie. Absolute end of discussion untrue. There are ways to both prepare for and counter them.

Go on then, enlighten me.

Grath Telkin wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:

They should not be able to (and tbh probably can't) volley a logi that is moving. If it is stationary however, then blap away.


I would like to introduce you to the Maelstrom, or really any arty fit ship including the Munin or Tornado, they easily can volley logis that are moving, and do so near constantly.

Wow, just wow...

Titan != BS
Titan != BC
Titan != HAC.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Tore Vest
#142 - 2012-02-28 23:51:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


The blob never stopped the MC, BoB, NC, Dronelands, Goons, Test, Atlas, IRC, ASCN, Tri, Red Alliance, CO2, CVA andall of the others from losing a campain or even their entire existence.

(Every single one of these have had the same thing about unstoppable blobs said about them in my time)

psst: We had supers then... Bear

No troll.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2012-02-28 23:52:21 UTC
That might be true, but that was a long time ago, the only thing that toppled most of those empires was age, the driving forces behind those alliances got bored and went AFK, that is not a viable counter to the blob, time should not be the answer to beating an empire, the act of watching it crumble from within.


A new alliance shouldn't be forced to wait in Deklien for Goons to go AFK enough to be beaten, there should be weapons at their disposal to deal with a group that thinks spamming 1000 drakes is the answer to a fight.

Currently, those weapons exist, and they exist with the a counter that is cheaply available to just about any person in the game with the skills to fly one.


2 days in an incursion fleet and you have bought, paid for, and insured a dreadnaught. Gather up 70 of these, and suddenly you have something that will literally insta gib a titan, gather 150, and not only will you kill one titan, you'll kill most on field that aren't smart enough to get the hell out of dodge, any more than that and suddenly you're looking at a **** the likes of which the game has never seen.


All that from 2 days worth of effort, 3 if you wanted to pay for 2 months of game time plexes after you buy a dread.





It doesn't take a rich alliance to make this happen, it just takes an alliance wanting it to happen, and then doing it

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2012-02-28 23:55:59 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:


Grath Telkin wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:

They should not be able to (and tbh probably can't) volley a logi that is moving. If it is stationary however, then blap away.


I would like to introduce you to the Maelstrom, or really any arty fit ship including the Munin or Tornado, they easily can volley logis that are moving, and do so near constantly.

Wow, just wow...

Titan != BS
Titan != BC
Titan != HAC.


So, ignoring the first part since people have been posting in 3 threads for days about how to 'cheaply' counter supers, I'll address the second part:


You said that battleships shouldn't be able to (and probably cant') [its in your quote] volley a logi thats moving.

I say it can, and provide you with at least 3 ship classes that can.


You then respond by relating all of those in some way to a titan.


The original point still stands, Subcaps can volley a logi that is moving, how is that in some way different from a Titan doing it?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2012-02-29 00:00:44 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:


Again, how will my solution put "the VAST bulk of people having no say what-so-ever"?


Capital pilots are a minority and simply adding more caps means the huge bulk that cant fly them are reduced to nothing more than a meat sheild.

It also means that the big 4 will simply blob them up so that not only do they have the titans to wipe out anything a small alliance could bring but would also mean they wouldnt attack eachother. Result? The same stagnation we saw with the supercarriers for a year and a half before the NC folded only this time, nobody will be stupid enough to sell capitals to the enemy.

If we go with EAF however every alliance can take part, newer players are made important for a fleet which is good for them and we avoid our virsion of the coldwar stockpiling of nukes that will never get used for fear of getting nuked themselves. The other upside being that currently useless ships become wanted.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2012-02-29 00:10:03 UTC
Tore Vest wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


The blob never stopped the MC, BoB, NC, Dronelands, Goons, Test, Atlas, IRC, ASCN, Tri, Red Alliance, CO2, CVA andall of the others from losing a campain or even their entire existence.

(Every single one of these have had the same thing about unstoppable blobs said about them in my time)

psst: We had supers then... Bear


ASCN had a grand total of one titan. The NC when they did the great welp of 6nj used 6 titans.

The current PL super fleet number more than everyone combined back in the days I am talking about. Half of them pre-date titans, hell some of them supercarriers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#147 - 2012-02-29 00:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Grath Telkin wrote:
That might be true, but that was a long time ago, the only thing that toppled most of those empires was age, the driving forces behind those alliances got bored and went AFK, that is not a viable counter to the blob, time should not be the answer to beating an empire, the act of watching it crumble from within.


A new alliance shouldn't be forced to wait in Deklien for Goons to go AFK enough to be beaten, there should be weapons at their disposal to deal with a group that thinks spamming 1000 drakes is the answer to a fight.

Currently, those weapons exist, and they exist with the a counter that is cheaply available to just about any person in the game with the skills to fly one.


2 days in an incursion fleet and you have bought, paid for, and insured a dreadnaught. Gather up 70 of these, and suddenly you have something that will literally insta gib a titan, gather 150, and not only will you kill one titan, you'll kill most on field that aren't smart enough to get the hell out of dodge, any more than that and suddenly you're looking at a **** the likes of which the game has never seen.


All that from 2 days worth of effort, 3 if you wanted to pay for 2 months of game time plexes after you buy a dread.





It doesn't take a rich alliance to make this happen, it just takes an alliance wanting it to happen, and then doing it


At least 15 of them will vanish in the first doomsday volly. Then the titans will bring about their turret firepower and tear them apart. The dreads will score one, maby two titan kills before they are obliterated themselves. Two titan losses is nothing for the likes of PL or the CFC.

And I am not talking about when those alliances of old folded, I mean all of the fights they lost in their history.
Tore Vest
#148 - 2012-02-29 00:15:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Capital pilots are a minority and simply adding more caps means the huge bulk that cant fly them are reduced to nothing more than a meat sheild.

It also means that the big 4 will simply blob them up so that not only do they have the titans to wipe out anything a small alliance could bring but would also mean they wouldnt attack eachother. Result? The same stagnation we saw with the supercarriers for a year and a half before the NC folded only this time, nobody will be stupid enough to sell capitals to the enemy.

If we go with EAF however every alliance can take part, newer players are made important for a fleet which is good for them and we avoid our virsion of the coldwar stockpiling of nukes that will never get used for fear of getting nuked themselves. The other upside being that currently useless ships become wanted.

You keep talking about how bad titans are against small allianses....
but not talking about how bad a blob of goons & co are against the same ppl....

Just say it.... Supers are in your way for nullsec dominance Bear

No troll.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#149 - 2012-02-29 00:25:26 UTC
Tore Vest wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Capital pilots are a minority and simply adding more caps means the huge bulk that cant fly them are reduced to nothing more than a meat sheild.

It also means that the big 4 will simply blob them up so that not only do they have the titans to wipe out anything a small alliance could bring but would also mean they wouldnt attack eachother. Result? The same stagnation we saw with the supercarriers for a year and a half before the NC folded only this time, nobody will be stupid enough to sell capitals to the enemy.

If we go with EAF however every alliance can take part, newer players are made important for a fleet which is good for them and we avoid our virsion of the coldwar stockpiling of nukes that will never get used for fear of getting nuked themselves. The other upside being that currently useless ships become wanted.

You keep talking about how bad titans are against small allianses....
but not talking about how bad a blob of goons & co are against the same ppl....

Just say it.... Supers are in your way for nullsec dominance Bear



Because blobs of subcaps have never been unbeatable. If you knew your history you would know this.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2012-02-29 00:26:46 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

I think you may be mentally ********, and are thinking of the patch that nerfed the portal doomsday, meaning titans had to leave the force field to fire their dd's, and couldn't do it through cyno's anymore.


Titans have literally always been tacklable.


The thing that made Molle tacklable was having to leave the force field, and nothing more.

what a suprise grath telkin, one of the least knowledgable people about supercaps on eve-o, does not know what he is talking about:

Quote:
Warp bubbles and interdiction spheres now prevent all ships from jumping, including Titans and Motherships.

http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=2802

i would say "boom headshot" but really it's like shooting a toddler

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2012-02-29 00:29:03 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

The original point still stands, Subcaps can volley a logi that is moving, how is that in some way different from a Titan doing it?

this might be the dumbest supercap post ever
we have reached peak grath it's all downhill from here

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2012-02-29 00:29:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
That might be true, but that was a long time ago, the only thing that toppled most of those empires was age, the driving forces behind those alliances got bored and went AFK, that is not a viable counter to the blob, time should not be the answer to beating an empire, the act of watching it crumble from within.


A new alliance shouldn't be forced to wait in Deklien for Goons to go AFK enough to be beaten, there should be weapons at their disposal to deal with a group that thinks spamming 1000 drakes is the answer to a fight.

Currently, those weapons exist, and they exist with the a counter that is cheaply available to just about any person in the game with the skills to fly one.


2 days in an incursion fleet and you have bought, paid for, and insured a dreadnaught. Gather up 70 of these, and suddenly you have something that will literally insta gib a titan, gather 150, and not only will you kill one titan, you'll kill most on field that aren't smart enough to get the hell out of dodge, any more than that and suddenly you're looking at a **** the likes of which the game has never seen.


All that from 2 days worth of effort, 3 if you wanted to pay for 2 months of game time plexes after you buy a dread.





It doesn't take a rich alliance to make this happen, it just takes an alliance wanting it to happen, and then doing it


At least 15 of them will vanish in the first doomsday volly. Then the titans will bring about their turret firepower and tear them apart. The dreads will score one, maby two titan kills before they are obliterated themselves. Two titan losses is nothing for the likes of PL or the CFC.

And I am not talking about when those alliances of old folded, I mean all of the fights they lost in their history.


I think you should look at the numbers, the real actual numbers again. 70 dreads has a hell of a volley, easily killing a tracking fit titan in nearly one volley, 2 finishes it off.


Also exactly 2 tank mods shields a dread from dying to a DD, so to lose 15, you'd need to get hit by 30 DD's fired in the exact right order, you're more likely to lose either A) None since the SOP is to fire DD's randomly at caps or B) 5-10 at most if they were smart enough to double up on targets.

I'm not making any of this up, its actually all in the math, if you wanted to look its there.


Titan balls haven't been countered yet because nobody has actively tried.






EVE has a hard coded habbit of crying nerf first and then later its discovered that people don't need a nerf, just a little forethought.

Examples are, when we first put Ahacs on the map, people were crying that the logis were too strong, that they needed nerfing, later it turned out that Ahacs are actually terrible and easily countered by themselves.

When we rolled out the tengu fleet, the same thing, tengus were fairly strong. Now that everybody and their brother has a Tengu fleet up the counters are beyond obvious.



The same will be said about the titan ball. Right now their only showing up from 3-4 alliances, the other that could field them (AAA) won't, for obvious reasons (they have a lot, but we have more, and ours are probably better at flying the ship in combat than theirs are). Goons and the CFC are making a massive push to get people into titans right now, their industry is literally churning them out and an amazing speed, as well as dreads. As the number of alliances with titan fleets increases, the counters will become more obvious as they are used by other people in the game that already thought of them, and planned for their use.

Our dread fleets, let me show them to you.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2012-02-29 00:30:24 UTC
an interceptor can mwd out of a bubble why can't a titan do it

a carrier can launch warrior iis why can't a titan do it

a stealth bomber can launch aoe bombs why can't a titan do it

band of brothers 2012: "a titan should be able to do anything any other ship can"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2012-02-29 00:31:51 UTC
i also enjoy grath's counter to a titan blob supported by heavy capital-sized reps from a SC fleet is a ship that can't receive remote reps

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tore Vest
#155 - 2012-02-29 00:33:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:



Because blobs of subcaps have never been unbeatable. If you knew your history you would know this.


No ships are unbeatable bro.... you should know this Bear

No troll.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2012-02-29 00:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Weaselior wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

I think you may be mentally ********, and are thinking of the patch that nerfed the portal doomsday, meaning titans had to leave the force field to fire their dd's, and couldn't do it through cyno's anymore.


Titans have literally always been tacklable.


The thing that made Molle tacklable was having to leave the force field, and nothing more.

what a suprise grath telkin, one of the least knowledgable people about supercaps on eve-o, does not know what he is talking about:

Quote:
Warp bubbles and interdiction spheres now prevent all ships from jumping, including Titans and Motherships.

http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=2802

i would say "boom headshot" but really it's like shooting a toddler


If you said 'boom headshot', you'd look more ********, that patch was well after Molle's first titan had died, in bubbles.


Unless you're insinuating that Titans and Motherships couldn't be tackled until Heat was released in EVE, and jump bridges were introduced.


Comon Weaselior, tell me thats what you're saying, and you're not just reading your own stupidity into that post that had a note added for clarity.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2012-02-29 00:36:45 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

I think you may be mentally ********, and are thinking of the patch that nerfed the portal doomsday, meaning titans had to leave the force field to fire their dd's, and couldn't do it through cyno's anymore.


Titans have literally always been tacklable.


The thing that made Molle tacklable was having to leave the force field, and nothing more.

what a suprise grath telkin, one of the least knowledgable people about supercaps on eve-o, does not know what he is talking about:

Quote:
Warp bubbles and interdiction spheres now prevent all ships from jumping, including Titans and Motherships.

http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=2802

i would say "boom headshot" but really it's like shooting a toddler


If you said 'boom headshot', you'd look more ********, that patch was well after Molle's first titan had died, in bubbles.


Unless you're insinuating that Titans and Motherships couldn't be tackled until Heat was released in EVE, and jump bridges were introduced.


Comon Weaselior, tell me thats what you're saying, and you're not just reading your own stupidity into that post that had a note added for clarity.


ahahahahahaha quoting this for posterity

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2012-02-29 00:38:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:


ahahahahahaha quoting this for posterity


I'll take that as a yes, you heard it here first folks, Weaselior says titans couldn't be tackled at all until Heat and Jumpbridges were released in EVE.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2012-02-29 00:39:24 UTC
grath given that i have already dragged you to the 0wnzone and sodomized you there rather than bait you into more stupid statements i will merely point out that patch is revalations II, a patch that you may have heard came out days before shrike was tackled and killed, and you may want to read those patch notes again before discussing those

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2012-02-29 00:40:42 UTC
because you've now declared that remote doomsday removal happened, then shrike happened, then later on that patch i linked happened

guess why that timeline is...highly unlikely

i'll give you a hint it can be found in those patch notes

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.