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Supercap Reballancing
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Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-02-24 22:59:04 UTC
Glarealot wrote:
At this point, Supercaps are the new battleships: http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg


Too bad MM didnt use a similar fleet to defend their space. Maybe they shouldn't have sold/RMT'd it all away hey :)

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#62 - 2012-02-24 23:02:38 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Glarealot wrote:
At this point, Supercaps are the new battleships: http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg


Too bad MM didnt use a similar fleet to defend their space. Maybe they shouldn't have sold/RMT'd it all away hey :)


How can you not see how big an issue supercap balancing and proliferation is? Seriously.

Are you intentionally ignoring it because you benefit from it, or are you just that dumb?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#63 - 2012-02-24 23:04:21 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Too bad MM didnt use a similar fleet to defend their space. Maybe they shouldn't have sold/RMT'd it all away hey :)

How can you not see how big an issue supercap balancing and proliferation is? Seriously.

Are you intentionally ignoring it because you benefit from it, or are you just that dumb?

Does it matter?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#64 - 2012-02-24 23:06:45 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

How can you not see how big an issue supercap balancing and proliferation is? Seriously.

Are you intentionally ignoring it because you benefit from it, or are you just that dumb?

Does it matter?


meh.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#65 - 2012-02-24 23:21:50 UTC
Headerman wrote:
You do realise that for a titan to kill a subcap that ship has to be webbed down a lot, right?

O RLY?

Erebus vs Tornado

Erebus vs Hurricane

Erebus vs Hurricane - Round II (Lulz at friendly fire)

(The battle report is very broken, we lost a lot more BCs, and there were a few more PL caps)

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-02-24 23:54:43 UTC
I don't even bother any post from an NPC corp that mentions the word "supercap".


You avoid bad trolls and terrible theory crafters alike!

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#67 - 2012-02-25 00:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Aiwha wrote:
I don't even bother any post from an NPC corp that mentions the word "supercap".


You avoid bad trolls and terrible theory crafters alike!

Char transfer. Don't really have much choice

And since you have no logic, facts or even blatent lies to counter my arguements, I'll take that as an admission from you that I am in fact 100% correct.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-02-28 14:51:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kern Walzky wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kern Walzky wrote:


if you think you can win eve in drakes your mistaken... you should counter with titans/supercarriers/dreads and then bring drakes aswell... i cant belive you think sub-capitals should always win nomatter what..


Welcome to supercaps online, if you cannot fly one then you are useless and will just die.

Sounds like a fun game.


Get your dread m8t capitals is the counter m8t.

i truely hope you have a dream in flying bigger more expensive in the future... you do know if drakes win they are next in ccp's nerf. :)

so i want CCP to look into not making ships useless, but look at the bigger picture.


I am. Have you noticed the lack of new alliances in 0.0? And I dont mean one of the old ones under a new name I mean like Test when they were new.

People cannot make any inroads into 0.0 in the current situation because fights are unwinnable. There are no tactics or fleet comps to counter titans for them. The smaller 0.0 alliances are also suffering because again, no counter available for them. The only power in all of EVE that could field enough dreads to make the difference is the CFC and even then the few hundred dreads would not be expected to survive the fight.

We are lucky in that we can come up with a counter, be it dreadswarm or just building more titans but for the vast bulk of EVE, they're ******.


How is CFC subcap blob different from that? So you are saying that Supers are the only reason why small alliances can't take space?
Do you really think that a small alliance could take a part of CFC space if CFC wouldn't use any Supercaps?
They coldn't due to lack of numbers!
So how does making supercaps useless solve this problem?

Why are huge entities like CFC or Team Tech able to gather gigantic fleets for every important fight?
Here are the answers:
- Mobility --> every ship is easily bridgeable within minutes within sov space
- Timers --> even if a small alliance manages to RF a system --> the defender has more then enough time bring 3 fleets
- Lack of destructable or lootable structures --> You cant destroy much without a timer
- Guerillia Tactics don't work in eve in sov fights because with JBs and Titanbridges/Jumpdrives everything is in range in eve, especially with TiDi.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#69 - 2012-02-28 15:05:38 UTC
Aren't you, oh...about six months late with this, OP?

Supercapitals were a mistake, and should be removed from the game, by the way.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#70 - 2012-02-28 15:12:20 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

- Many people who have invested a lot of money and skillpoints will be pissed


If you invest money into getting a titan, then you deserve to have them nerfed.

If you have enough SPs to fly a titan, then you'll find it easy to get the skills to fly other stuff effectively too.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#71 - 2012-02-28 15:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Aren't you, oh...about six months late with this, OP?

Supercapitals were a mistake, and should be removed from the game, by the way.

No, they shouldn't. But they do need worked on.

CCP could do things such as:

  1. Make it easier for super caps to kill each other, ie. increase doomsday and FB effectiveness against other supers.

    • a. Nerf Titan tracking so that they cant hit faster battleships (but can still hit something like a triple plated Abaddon).
      • OR
    • b. Leave Titan tracking as it is, but make it so that Titans either can't refit in space (introduce a limited form of super cap docking), can't refit from MOMs, or suffer some form of penalty when doing so, meaning that if a Titan pilot fields a tracking death machine at the expense of tank, can't instantly refit to a massive brick tank once they become primary.


  3. Introduce new capital ships such as a capital EWar ship, capital dictor, capital version of the teir3 BCs (lots of big guns, on a fast, fragile frame), or some other ships that increase the tactical elements of capital warfare.

  4. Introduce a spool up time on jump drives and/or portals, meaning that you can't move a massive fleet of death across the entire cluster in just a couple of minutes.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#72 - 2012-02-28 16:09:48 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Aren't you, oh...about six months late with this, OP?

Supercapitals were a mistake, and should be removed from the game, by the way.


Supercap proliferation is a obvious problem in the 0.0 power game today, but only because CCP has done a poor job designing the tools and mechanics for a proper capital battlefield. The CFC block will argue that the ONLY solution to this problem is to nerf supercaps into oblivion, conveniently ignoring to mention that there are several entities currently opposing the CFC that build their capabilities around comparatively smaller number of players piloting these beasts and have invested trillions over the last years doing so. They claim to speak about game design, but are merely badly disguised politicians.

The unstoppable titan blob is a problem that needs to be addressed. The way the CFC block prefers to do it is however not the solution. CCP needs to build on the game, not detract from it. Reducing titans to capital killers only breaks with how the rest of the game works and it will not make it any easier for newer alliances to establish a foothold in nullsec. But it WILL nerf the entities currently opposing the CFC in nullsec, which of course is their real agenda.

In short, new relatively cheap capabilities that will enable poorer entities to pose a credible threat to supercaps are needed. The dread is not effective enough. New soft-kill capabilities (neutralize instead of kill) are needed as well (the CSMs EAF idea is however laughable – a frigate should not take out a titan). Design must aim for solutions where supercap only blobs will find themselves at a severe disadvantage when opposing a true combined arms opposing fleet, forcing them to adopt similar tactics to prevail.

CCP has grappled with a badly designed capital battlefield for ages. With more and more players getting experienced enough – and rich enough – to get into them, CCP need to clean up their act and design a proper capital battlefield for the future. Constricting the game to sub caps only might have been an option in 2005. It is not an option in 2012.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#73 - 2012-02-28 17:33:34 UTC
Post with your main please.

My main is banned, so I have an excuse.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
sakurako
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-02-28 18:30:55 UTC
ohh great this topic again.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-02-28 18:35:29 UTC
Kern Walzky wrote:
Well if we look past goons spam and troll i think you CCP need to look into your style of "nerf" and look more at big picture.

Making ships useless and not needed is not the way to go, we tried this with Supercarriers and now again with Titan's...

time, skills, isk and risk for making a super capital alone should really make you CCP think about what effect this yet another nerf will have on EVE and in total blobs of drakes... hope you guys are proud... enough drakes and you can do anything...

no need for any capitals or supercapitals anywhere.... hope this is a proud momemt for you CCP.

and now for more Goon troll and spam. :)



Time, isk skill and risk?

And how many of the current supercaps out there have been gained through legitimate means?

I'd take a guess that many of the supercaps were acquired with illegally gotten isk, at no risk and it takes no skill to launch a 250 supercap blob and nothing can combat that.

Best thing is remove supercaps, refund the sp's to players and give them cookie. It will only affect a couple of thousand people at most, probably allot less.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-02-28 18:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: knobber Jobbler
Double post.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2012-02-28 18:58:49 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Aren't you, oh...about six months late with this, OP?

Supercapitals were a mistake, and should be removed from the game, by the way.


Supercap proliferation is a obvious problem in the 0.0 power game today, but only because CCP has done a poor job designing the tools and mechanics for a proper capital battlefield. The CFC block will argue that the ONLY solution to this problem is to nerf supercaps into oblivion, conveniently ignoring to mention that there are several entities currently opposing the CFC that build their capabilities around comparatively smaller number of players piloting these beasts and have invested trillions over the last years doing so. They claim to speak about game design, but are merely badly disguised politicians.

The unstoppable titan blob is a problem that needs to be addressed. The way the CFC block prefers to do it is however not the solution. CCP needs to build on the game, not detract from it. Reducing titans to capital killers only breaks with how the rest of the game works and it will not make it any easier for newer alliances to establish a foothold in nullsec. But it WILL nerf the entities currently opposing the CFC in nullsec, which of course is their real agenda.

In short, new relatively cheap capabilities that will enable poorer entities to pose a credible threat to supercaps are needed. The dread is not effective enough. New soft-kill capabilities (neutralize instead of kill) are needed as well (the CSMs EAF idea is however laughable – a frigate should not take out a titan). Design must aim for solutions where supercap only blobs will find themselves at a severe disadvantage when opposing a true combined arms opposing fleet, forcing them to adopt similar tactics to prevail.

CCP has grappled with a badly designed capital battlefield for ages. With more and more players getting experienced enough – and rich enough – to get into them, CCP need to clean up their act and design a proper capital battlefield for the future. Constricting the game to sub caps only might have been an option in 2005. It is not an option in 2012.


While I don't agree with everything said, this is largely the truth behind the CFC's campaign against supers.



Other lies in this thread include:

A MWDing BC fleet engages a single fully tracking fit titan, marvels at how fast its dying to its BC fleet, but now complains about how easily they died while MWDing around the titan (video available, source, RVB).


Titans can refit in space yets, off other cap ships, however, what many of you fail to realize is that over a certain number, you can't refit, you get an error message, Too many ships in range to use the fitting service of 'x'.



One person says they want faster BS to be immune but slower 'triple plated abbadons' to get hit. Sorry, thats pretty much the exact opposite of game mechanics. The slower abbadon has a lower sig, the faster BS would be under MWD power, otherwise most BS are near the same speed. A MWD balloons a ships sig thus making it incredibly easy to miss.


One other guy said if ever titan pilot quit, they'd lose a few hundred subs.....well, we'd need a CCP metric on that, but lets say we take an example, not saying this person would actually quit, but lets take my buddy JEFFRAIDER as an example:

JEFF has 30 accounts. No thats not an exaggeration he literally has 30 accounts. Most of PL have 3-5 accounts, and thats just us. Most Titan pilots have 3-5 accounts just for cynos. Theres over 1000 Titans in EVE at this point (building off numbers released by CCP 2 weeks ago), so you'd be looking at more like 3000 accounts minimum, if ever one were to quit.

One man said Titans are logistical ships, meant for moving ships and providing bonuses, but the original design, and the description of each ship plainly states that they are meant for mass devastation and carnage.


People keep saying that there is no counter to a super fleet besides another super fleet, this is also a lie, dreads are an insurable counter that cost pennies after the loss should they die, supers give no insurance.





In the end, if supers are made useless against sub caps, then subcaps shouldn't be able to hurt supers at all, and to make sure they retain a role, sub caps should no longer be able to harm IHUBS, POS Main tower (defaning a pos or jammer is still ok), SBU's or Stations.


This is the realm of fair that the CFC is pushing for, and if all of that were to happne I'd be totally fine with a huge titan nerf, because at least then they'd still have something to shoot at when the CFC/AAA are finally forced to field supers to achieve a goal instead of trying to clog the guns of their enemies by spamming 1000 drakes at a fight.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Lord Wiggin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-02-28 19:20:44 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Aren't you, oh...about six months late with this, OP?

Supercapitals were a mistake, and should be removed from the game, by the way.



Only by whiny children that want easy mode.....Oops
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#79 - 2012-02-28 19:36:57 UTC
What they did: Broke Supercaps for use by smaller alliances/corps.

What they should have done.

Create separate drone and fighter bays, reduce drone bay to some reasonable size.
Leave tank nerf intact.
Nerf jumprange, cut it in half.
Add a cool down period to Supers Jump drive. 3+ hours

They can no longer be used to rampage all over the map, they become defensive weapons only.
Still a proliferation problem, but that problem is directly connected to the Isk faucet that is tech. And since only the biggest Alliances can hold tech for any length of time, the problem is magnifed. Until CCP fixes that isk faucet, and perhaps tries to distribute some of that value among all moons, nothing will really change.....Cool





"Bees are not really dangerous, it's your fear of them that's dangerous"

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2012-02-28 19:50:22 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

Still a proliferation problem, but that problem is directly connected to the Isk faucet that is tech. And since only the biggest Alliances can hold tech for any length of time, the problem is magnifed. Until CCP fixes that isk faucet, and perhaps tries to distribute some of that value among all moons, nothing will really change.....Cool



PL holds a fairly large number of tech moons, yet we're nowhere near the biggest alliance, and though a few of us may be adding Supers with Tech, thats not the main source of the average member buying a super.


Though i do agree Tech is a problem (sort of) in that its highly concentrated in one area of the map, the Moons are largely the number one fight creator in the game right now, much more so than system timers, since there is only one timer, and its worth so much.

If you remove that, you remove the fight generator, and 0.0 becomes more stale.


On the other hand, we as an alliance subsidize supers (well for the 9 dudes we have left with no super/titan), but the bulk of the isk they accumulate comes directly from Incursions.

A proper incursion group running incursions can drum up enough isk to buy a super in the cycle of a single incursions spawn and despawn.

That, is where your current proliferation is springing from, incursions have added so much isk to the game that literally anybody who wants a super can easily go out and buy one.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.