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CCP, CSM and Bots

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selym nos
Atari Technologies
#1 - 2012-02-28 12:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: selym nos
Hi there,

i have read a lot of CSM applications in the last year and i never found one guy stnding up against CCP and their way of dealing with bots.
i mean. CCP obviously tolerate bots since they stop doing stuff against them.
i also understand why CSM member dont want to talk about it with ccp. they would loose 50% of their voters instantly. but why dont we legalice it then? i mean. every mayor alliance do it. a lot of single players do it, too. ccp is ok with that. so y not allowe it for everyone?

/edit. i am pretty sure ever CSM meber what try to support it will win!
Hroya
#2 - 2012-02-28 12:12:54 UTC
Because without any possible proof of such activity and mearly speculating on rumours, the community involved and the company facillitating such can maintain the public relations illusion that actuall players are working together to accomplish great things when in reallity it are far less numbers playing the game as it should be played.

You go your corridor but.
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2012-02-28 12:38:08 UTC
Let me help out since I know what the other side of this conversation looks like.

Every CSM is against botting, every single one. That aside our ability to get information on techniques and procedures being used by CCP to combat botting is very limited (as it should be honestly) and our ability to convey that botting is a serious game breaking issue that has ruined the economy and contributed to out of control mudflation has been used to its fullest extent. CCP gets it, they do, the CSM can't yell about it any louder. I would suggest you sniff some forums discussing Hbot and laugh at the tears though. Team anti-bot just committed a bloodbath against users of this program and it's goddamn hilarious.
selym nos
Atari Technologies
#4 - 2012-02-28 13:04:13 UTC
i was in a corp with a botter. he talked about it in corp all the time, so i told ccp. what happened? nothing. he is still botting with his chars. i quit this corp cause didnt wanted to have something to do with it. i just read several different "standard" eve forums and in 2 of them ppl openly said that they r botting and everyone who is not is stupid. that happens again and again.
i dont see ccp doing anything about it. and that just suck...
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2012-02-28 13:19:32 UTC
selym nos wrote:
i was in a corp with a botter. he talked about it in corp all the time, so i told ccp. what happened? nothing. he is still botting with his chars. i quit this corp cause didnt wanted to have something to do with it. i just read several different "standard" eve forums and in 2 of them ppl openly said that they r botting and everyone who is not is stupid. that happens again and again.
i dont see ccp doing anything about it. and that just suck...







And I watched a crapload of botters get banned yesterday so anecdotal evidence isn't really a game changer in this discussion.
selym nos
Atari Technologies
#6 - 2012-02-28 15:21:29 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
And I watched a crapload of botters get banned yesterday so anecdotal evidence isn't really a game changer in this discussion.
i havent expected more from a goon.

last years ccp always wrote a nice article about it, when they banned a lot of accounts. they stopped doing anything or talking aout it. for the casuall user its the same. he have not seen anything ccp is doing about it.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#7 - 2012-02-28 15:22:32 UTC
selym nos wrote:
i was in a corp with a botter. he talked about it in corp all the time, so i told ccp. what happened? nothing. he is still botting with his chars. i quit this corp cause didnt wanted to have something to do with it. i just read several different "standard" eve forums and in 2 of them ppl openly said that they r botting and everyone who is not is stupid. that happens again and again.
i dont see ccp doing anything about it. and that just suck...






Why didn't you gank them while you were in their corp? Personally, even if they were my closest corp mates who I may have known for years, I would have ganked them to the fullest extent of my turrets because I personally despise bots and their users. Anyone who bots deserves to face retribution.

@Vile Rat - I would love to see those tears again. Oh, and I also use to read some of the whine threads posted on the bot forums the last time me and a few others went on a little crusade against them. Effing funny!

Adapt or Die
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2012-02-28 15:23:15 UTC
selym nos wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
And I watched a crapload of botters get banned yesterday so anecdotal evidence isn't really a game changer in this discussion.
i havent expected more from a goon.

last years ccp always wrote a nice article about it, when they banned a lot of accounts. they stopped doing anything or talking aout it. for the casuall user its the same. he have not seen anything ccp is doing about it.


Really now, I was engaging with you on an honest level and you're going to go the 'I EXPECTED AS MUCH FROM A GOON' path?

Good luck with your issue friend.
selym nos
Atari Technologies
#9 - 2012-02-28 15:31:35 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
selym nos wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
And I watched a crapload of botters get banned yesterday so anecdotal evidence isn't really a game changer in this discussion.
i havent expected more from a goon.

last years ccp always wrote a nice article about it, when they banned a lot of accounts. they stopped doing anything or talking aout it. for the casuall user its the same. he have not seen anything ccp is doing about it.


Really now, I was engaging with you on an honest level and you're going to go the 'I EXPECTED AS MUCH FROM A GOON' path?

Good luck with your issue friend.
sorry, but it sounded not very honest to me. maybe cause i am not a native speaker, but it sounded just wrong...

@henry: i tried to. but he has a alt corp on the other ide of the universe to avoid it :(
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#10 - 2012-02-29 00:04:24 UTC
selym nos wrote:
Hi there,

i have read a lot of CSM applications in the last year and i never found one guy stnding up against CCP and their way of dealing with bots.
i mean. CCP obviously tolerate bots since they stop doing stuff against them.
i also understand why CSM member dont want to talk about it with ccp. they would loose 50% of their voters instantly. but why dont we legalice it then? i mean. every mayor alliance do it. a lot of single players do it, too. ccp is ok with that. so y not allowe it for everyone?

/edit. i am pretty sure ever CSM meber what try to support it will win!



I've gone on the record that I think CCP needs to get more serious about stopping bots. But I'd say this, either CCP needs to step up their effort or just make them legal!

Issler
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-02-29 03:08:48 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
I've gone on the record that I think CCP needs to get more serious about stopping bots.


It's good to see you sticking your neck out and taking a controversial stand on the issue.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-02-29 03:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ThisIsntMyMain
Issler Dainze wrote:

I've gone on the record that I think CCP needs to get more serious about stopping bots. But I'd say this, either CCP needs to step up their effort or just make them legal!


So you accuse CCP of not doing enough about bots and then say since they're failing to stop the problem CCP should "just make them legal" ? You wanna rephrase that maybe ?
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#13 - 2012-02-29 04:31:26 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Let me help out since I know what the other side of this conversation looks like.

Every CSM is against botting, every single one. That aside our ability to get information on techniques and procedures being used by CCP to combat botting is very limited (as it should be honestly) and our ability to convey that botting is a serious game breaking issue that has ruined the economy and contributed to out of control mudflation has been used to its fullest extent. CCP gets it, they do, the CSM can't yell about it any louder.


Quoting the above because every word Vile says above is true. This is just a subject that we can't really talk about that much openly and no one else that gets on the CSM will be able to either. What we can say is exactly what Vile said above - we are all against it, we voice that stance loudly and beyond that there is nothing more we can do but continue in the same vein.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-02-29 05:04:08 UTC
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:

I've gone on the record that I think CCP needs to get more serious about stopping bots. But I'd say this, either CCP needs to step up their effort or just make them legal!


So you accuse CCP of not doing enough about bots and then say since they're failing to stop the problem CCP should "just make them legal" ? You wanna rephrase that maybe ?


basically "CCP doesn't have a magic wand to ban all the bots at once so they might as well just allow it"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-02-29 05:41:25 UTC
Andski wrote:
basically "CCP doesn't have a magic wand to ban all the bots at once so they might as well just allow it"


Well, it might not be *all* the bots, but there sure are a lot of tears on the h-bot forums today Lol
selym nos
Atari Technologies
#16 - 2012-02-29 10:17:28 UTC
a lot of legit players (including me) are not lookin into bo forums. y ccp is not talking about it when they success to get some of them? they dont need to talk about the how, but if they dont talk about it no normal player see that they do anything!
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#17 - 2012-02-29 11:36:03 UTC
This is my take on things, and as members of the CSM cannot say, I will say what I believe to be the issue given what knowledge I have from other games and law. Because of the nature of EVE's subscription you are paying real money for a service, as such there are certain laws that CCP have to follow to avoid being sued by a player.

If CCP where to just ban a player on a whim or because "they might have been botting" they could end up in some very difficult legal territory with people that where unfairly banned wanting some kind of reimbursement, (where giving them a months free just won't cut it), as such CCP take a stance where they will not ban anybody without there being 90% certainty that the EULA was being violated.

Also do not underestimate the bot developers, as someone who used to bot a long time before I played eve on a different game, I can tell you that some of the developers of these bots, would give the programmers at CCP a run for their money as far as skill and talent at programming, you'll find often the bots stay 1 step ahead of the company most of the time.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#18 - 2012-02-29 11:40:07 UTC
selym nos wrote:
a lot of legit players (including me) are not lookin into bo forums. y ccp is not talking about it when they success to get some of them? they dont need to talk about the how, but if they dont talk about it no normal player see that they do anything!


Because hundreds of people are banned everyday by CCP, everytime they get banned they just make a new account and start over, that is how bots work and before you suggest IP banning the botters, that won't work, since 90% of them are using IP masks and connecting over some other poor fellows IP address, you ban they IP they proxy onto a new one, and keep doing that.

Also thanks to bots I can keep getting Blarpy's blown up for relatively cheap, if you honestly want to see how much of a difference botting can make to an economy look at a game like Runescape, who successfully managed to recently break 90% of the bots that at the time existed, and since then the market has skyrocketed, the prices for some of the simplest of things is rediculous, purely because nobody wants to spend hours mining, the bots do the jobs 90% of us aren't interested in doing ^^
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-02-29 12:03:47 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:


Because hundreds of people are banned everyday by CCP, everytime they get banned they just make a new account and start over, that is how bots work and before you suggest IP banning the botters, that won't work, since 90% of them are using IP masks and connecting over some other poor fellows IP address, you ban they IP they proxy onto a new one, and keep doing that.




Actually there are way of dealing with bots that stops them coming back so easily, just CCP hasn't implemented their bot protection in that manner.

How do I know? I've worked on triple A MMO's with botting problems which we solved, and I can tell you that CCP isn't dealing with it in the right manner if its got bots in its game thats is unaware of; and its unaware of quite a few.

There was a fun challenge issued by FrFrmPukin on the Not Allot of News podcast where you can go down to the botting lands yourself and check them out, farming away for a certain alliance.

While I believe the CSM members (well at least all but 1) are against bots and intend to try and get rid of them, CCP on the other hand doesn't really communicate very well that its tackling it and it doesn't provide players with an easy means of reporting them (I know, players will abuse it - which is BS because its worked in other games). CCP also seems to ignore all the Jita bots and macro users, because the same ones are there day in and day out.
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2012-02-29 12:34:10 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
This is my take on things, and as members of the CSM cannot say, I will say what I believe to be the issue given what knowledge I have from other games and law. Because of the nature of EVE's subscription you are paying real money for a service, as such there are certain laws that CCP have to follow to avoid being sued by a player.

If CCP where to just ban a player on a whim or because "they might have been botting" they could end up in some very difficult legal territory with people that where unfairly banned wanting some kind of reimbursement,



I don't think this is an issue. I'm pretty sure the EULA protects them from this nicely.

http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp

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