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Thanatos versus Machariel for max isk/hour Gurista Forsaken Hub
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Hellshred
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-28 12:40:56 UTC
Hey guys, this question is for isk/hour fanatics in null sec, who have flown both carriers and machariels.

At the moment my main source of isk is forsaken hubs in gurista space. I use a thanatos.

Before anyone starts, I know a carrier is meant for logistics and isnt really meant for dps so please don't bother lecturing me on that. I had no other choice(I'm Gallente) because rails still suck and I dont wanna spend time microwarping all over grid to get into blaster range. I know tengus are awesome but I don't wanna cross train missiles and then t2 missiles.

I used to use an Ishtar but it kinda maxes out at 550 dps, which leads to around 9-11 mil wallet payouts every 20 mins.

Anyway, my carrier and fighters skills are not maxed out. I am at carrier lvl 3, fighters lvl 3 and advanced drone interfacing lvl 3. I pull in around 18.5 mil per tick, so about 55 mil/hour if I move from hub to hub. So this is with 11 fighters. I am planning to max out my carrier/fighter skills to 5.

My question is that will a thanatos with 15 fighters have a greater isk/hour than a maxed out machariel.

I don't want a comparison of on-paper dps. I want a comparison of wallet ticks.

It would be best if someone who uses a machariel in gurista space answer this question.

Don't think I havent read other threads on this issue, my question is specific to crucible and forsaken hubs.

Thankyou
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2 - 2012-02-28 14:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
I've done time trial after time trial with my mach and my thanny (can only use a total of 14 fighters, don't have carrier 5, but do have 5 DCUs in the highs and fighters 5) and other ships. The only ships i've had come close to the mach for forsaken hubs is HAM Tengu and Vargur.

Mach wins every time. I warp in, kill a cruiser, then approach the wreck, so the mach is dead center of where the spawns appear. Thanny does more paper dps yea, but in practice the mach wins and I never use the machs drones either.

My personal best in Guristas forsaken hubs is 32 mil ticks (using republic fleet phased plasma L, 28 mil with regular phased plasma, I use faction ammo because I'm not just interested in ticks, the faster you do an anom, the more anoms you can do, the more chances for escalations you get) with the mach vs 25 mil ticks tops with the thanny +14 fighters (21 mil with thanny or Archon with sentries).

Mach is pretty standard fit (tech2 autocannons, tank in the mids, 4 faction gyros, 3 tech2 TEs in the lows, Tech2 RoF rig, tech 1 thermal rig). I also have +3 hardwirings for guns and cap.

Even in the close quarters of the Forsaken hub, fighter's travel times dampen your isk per tick, mainly because the guristas battleships move away from you. But even in angel space, mach wins. Nightmare beats carriers the same way in Blood/sansha/drone space. and yea i tested it, getting more and better ticks is a game within the game for me lol. Only solo ship that beats the mach (or HAM tengu or varg) is a titan (until the nerf lol).

Hope that helps.
Hellshred
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-02-28 14:42:00 UTC
You my friend, are awesome. Thankyou for the quick reply, I will pray to the "named loot" gods to shower you with iskies.

Now to grind that 1bil for the mach :)
myFORUMalt alts
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-02-29 02:23:06 UTC
Now my question is, I have two toons, One is a max thanny pilot currently training for the mach, the other is a maxed tengu pilot, training for mach/vargur. Whats the best combo. Vargur/mach. Mach/thanny. Mach Mach. eventually Vargur Vargur.

Yes, I complain about things I don't like.
Magrata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-29 06:48:16 UTC
In Case you can dual-box them right, i would say Mach/Mach (maybe with Energy-Transfer?)

Otherwise i would say, Tengu with fighter
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#6 - 2012-02-29 18:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
myFORUMalt alts wrote:
Now my question is, I have two toons, One is a max thanny pilot currently training for the mach, the other is a maxed tengu pilot, training for mach/vargur. Whats the best combo. Vargur/mach. Mach/thanny. Mach Mach. eventually Vargur Vargur.


Mach/Tengu all day long , though all of those combinations can be good.

I have extra sub-systems for the tengu, so I can turn it from a ratting tengu to a tanking/scouting tengu for escalations in a snap.

Mach/mach is ok, but you can't really take that combo to do escalations in space where the plexes shoot capital torps at you (like in the guristas 10/10, and the end of Dread Guristas Fleet Staging point, even a well tanked mach with Remote rep support from another mach will die to the torps)

Just to tell you how lazy I am, I use my mach/tengu team with FoF missles, so I set the Tengu to keep at range on the mach and just fly the mach, mousing over to the other screen to restart missles launchers ever 4 minutes are so. The FoF missles attack whatever is closest to the tengu, and with the tengu being at zero of the mach, it acts like a point defense ship for the mach lol. So the tengu is popping cruisers and frigs with ultra cheap FoF missles (with my skills and implants my fof tengu does about 600 dps) while the mach kills battle ships.

Sure, I could get much more dps out of the tengu with regular missles, but like I said, im uber-lazy :) .Hell, i've even done mach/tengu/tengu, 1200 FoF missle DPS is something to behold :) .

Yes i'm a bear, bears unite!
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Phoibe Enterprises
#7 - 2012-02-29 19:27:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Just to tell you how lazy I am, I use my mach/tengu team with FoF missles, so I set the mach to keep at range on the mach and just fly the mach, mousing over to the other screen to restart missles launchers ever 4 minutes are so. The FoF missles attack whatever is closest to the tengu, and with the tengu being at zero of the mach, it acts like a point defense ship for the mach lol. So the tengu is popping cruisers and frigs with ultra cheap FoF missles (with my skills and implants my fof tengu does about 600 dps) while the mach kills battle ships.


This is hilariously awesome. The mental image just cracks me up. Kudos for being creative!
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-03-01 10:18:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Just to tell you how lazy I am, I use my mach/tengu team with FoF missles, so I set the mach to keep at range on the mach and just fly the mach, mousing over to the other screen to restart missles launchers ever 4 minutes are so. The FoF missles attack whatever is closest to the tengu, and with the tengu being at zero of the mach, it acts like a point defense ship for the mach lol. So the tengu is popping cruisers and frigs with ultra cheap FoF missles (with my skills and implants my fof tengu does about 600 dps) while the mach kills battle ships.

Sure, I could get much more dps out of the tengu with regular missles, but like I said, im uber-lazy :) .Hell, i've even done mach/tengu/tengu, 1200 FoF missle DPS is something to behold :) .

Yes i'm a bear, bears unite!

I tried to recreate something like this before. But the issue that i run into was that sometimes FoF missiles started shooting structures (rings in guristas sanctums) instead of actuall rats. And once it started shooting those structures, there was no way to convince dumb FoF's to switch back to rats. So i abandoned this idea.

How do you solved this? Or its only problem with ring sanctum and other anomalies do not have this?

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-03-01 13:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Red Templar wrote:

I tried to recreate something like this before. But the issue that i run into was that sometimes FoF missiles started shooting structures (rings in guristas sanctums) instead of actuall rats. And once it started shooting those structures, there was no way to convince dumb FoF's to switch back to rats. So i abandoned this idea.

How do you solved this? Or its only problem with ring sanctum and other anomalies do not have this?


Yea, the only thing dumber than a drone in EVE is an FoF missile lol. The only work around is to not do anomalies with structures.

The anoms with structures are:

-Both Sanctums
-"Pirate Gate" Haven
-Regular Hubs *
-Regular Ports
-Forlorn Hub**

FoF friendly "no structure" anoms are:
-"Chemical Factory" Havens
-Forsaken and Hidden Hubs
-ALL named Rally Points
-ALL named Dens

(* I still do regular hubs because even though it has structures, they pop so easily the fof ship clears them out really quickly)
(** Forlorn Hub has a stargate in it that soaks up FoF missiles, BUT if you just don't move from the warp in you are ok, because all the rats spawn between the warp in and the gate).

Now that anoms other than sanctums and havens are viable, their are lots of new possibilities. you ever want to go "WTF is this" while doing an anom, try forlorn rally points or hidden hubs, be sure to have a hefty tank though lol.

I live off of Chem factory Havens and Forsaken Rally points (fun fact, the forsaken rally point give as much isk as pre-buff pirate gate havens used to). Forsaken hubs give more raw isk, but I seriously dislike Dread Guristas (or any faction's) Fleet Staging points, sure A-type loot is cool, but going all over creation to get it isn't. Havens give 10/10 escalations and forsaken rally point escalates to 8/10s.

Did an 8/10 I got from a forsaken rally point last night and got a half bill worth of loot. Like forsaken hubs, everything in the forsaken rally point spawns in one place, and the 2 spawns with frigs are easily dealt with by the FoF spamming Tengu. Forsaken Rally points are also cool because if you do get a faction spawn, it's cruiser sized and you could actually get good mods or implants or ammo, i got some Dread Guristas Antimatter M once.

The people who say doing anomalies is boring are partially right, but they just aren't being creative enough lol.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#10 - 2012-03-01 13:57:28 UTC
Tabernack en Chasteaux wrote:


This is hilariously awesome. The mental image just cracks me up. Kudos for being creative!


Thanks. I love trying to "build a better mouse trap" in the game. If the new caldari Tier3 BC (The Naga) had been able to use cruise missles, i would have been spamming crusie FoFs by now.

I got the idea from watching another dude in another alliance that we were blue with warp in 4 FoF Ravens into forsaken hubs (pre-buff) and just wrecking stuff. It was just cool to watch, and it's very nice to see an under-used game item (FoF missiles) put to good use.
Armelius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-03-01 19:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Armelius
I just started flying the mach and I have a pretty standard fit as mentioned above. I am wondering about some advice you all might have on how best to pilot it in hubs. I'm wondering how close you found is good..what targets to shoot or have drones support with, etc. My best thus far is only 27 mil, but I feel like I can do much better. I should mention my related skills are all 4 or 5 in gunnery drones and min bs.
ObieWan Kenobieie
Galactic Masonry MGZ
#12 - 2012-03-03 04:28:14 UTC
My standard setup is assigned fighters to dps ship in anoms.


I tried the fof autopilot idea, I noticed that the ship was splitting dps between random ships. I didn't notice it attacking structures.

Cardith
Freelancers' Righteous Escalade
#13 - 2012-03-05 11:19:58 UTC
as i am also a very lazy person i can offer u another combo :)


Golem(torps)/Kronos sits at haven gate (shoots and salvages)

Dominix (as many as u want) sit 100km off and guard with t2 wardens the marauder.

u make 13-14 mill ticks per char and can loot/salvage every battleship

Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-03-05 14:53:29 UTC
ObieWan Kenobieie wrote:
My standard setup is assigned fighters to dps ship in anoms.


I tried the fof autopilot idea, I noticed that the ship was splitting dps between random ships. I didn't notice it attacking structures.


Tried assigning drones.

2 issues i have with that tactic. If some npc aggroes your fighters, you cannot remrep them or scoop up. Which sucks, you either risk loosing fighter or have to give/take back fighters all the time - annoying.
Second is that fighters do not switch targets automatically after their target dies, you have to target them = effort.

So i gave up on that setup.

PS. going to try mach+foftengu setup today. See how it goes.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-03-06 15:02:57 UTC
Ok, that was pretty neat. The max i got on each character was 19-21mil a tick. I came close to actually finishing 2 anomalies in single tick.

But im not quite happy with my mach fit/skills yet and tengu can also use some tweaking for this kind of farming. And i did not use drones at all. So i guess i could improve that result.

Separate question - what is a rate of escalations droping from anomalies these days?

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]