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An open debate - CSM 7 Candidates - What will you do for miners?
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#1 - 2012-02-26 23:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Issler Dainze
Since I haven't been in some of the recent voice debates I'll bring my major issue here.

For the other CSM 7 candidates,

What will you be pressuring CCP to do for the miners of Eve?

What I'll be doing is:

1. The primary source of minerals needs to be from mining!
2. Mining has gone 8 years+ with no real change in experiences, CCP needs to offer us a new upper end mining experience in addition to the current mining experience that is dynamic, affected by the pilots actual skill, provides more variation of ships and fittings and offers more rewards based on real time activities.
3. CCP must begin to include anti-botting technologies into the client.
4. Miners deserve more ships, drones and mods!
5. CCP needs to make the small barges meaningful!
6. CCP needs to finally make belt spawns based on the dynamic experience found in exploration sites as promised years ago! End the wait for the days till respawn we have today!
7. Null sec needs to be able to mine everything you need to live there in null!


That is the short version of my agenda, looking forward to the other candidates views on what they bring to the miners of Eve if elected.

Issler Dainze
The Miners's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#2 - 2012-02-26 23:28:14 UTC
reserved
Lucius Tal
Tal Holdings Limited
#3 - 2012-02-27 02:19:00 UTC
Issler, I read in your other post that you were unable to join the 'Lost in Eve' debates. Why don't you try and contact some other podcasts like: Notalotofnews, Voices from the Void, Fly Reckless and Podgoo. Some of the CSM candidates have already appeared on their shows.

Notalotofnews seem to talk more about industry and in particular how mining bots are ruining 'real' mining in Eve. Any candidate running on an industrial platform would need to address this issue. Might be worth a shot.

Good luck
Aiifa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-27 10:41:51 UTC
Would removing asteroid belts and increasing grav site spawn rate be completely ridiculous?
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#5 - 2012-02-27 18:57:15 UTC
Aiifa wrote:
Would removing asteroid belts and increasing grav site spawn rate be completely ridiculous?


CCP discussed something like that a number of years back. On of the secondary benefits of the spawn VS. down time update is it would remove one major DB task every downtime.

We need to get CCP to put changing the belt refreshes back in plan.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#6 - 2012-02-27 21:30:05 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
7. Null sec needs to be able to mine everything you need to live there in null!

Unless there's some uber veldspar, that wouldn't be much help other than to laugh at newbies mining veldspar..

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#7 - 2012-02-28 00:44:33 UTC
This thread is intended to be a place for the other CSM candidates to discuss what they will do for miners. Please restrict your posts to candidate responses.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate
Sidus Sarmiang
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-02-28 02:45:57 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Since I haven't been in some of the recent voice debates I'll bring my major issue here.

For the other CSM 7 candidates,

What will you be pressuring CCP to do for the miners of Eve?




Take them out behind the barn and put them out of their misery.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2012-02-28 07:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Issler Dainze wrote:
1. The primary source of minerals needs to be from mining!
2. Mining has gone 8 years+ with no real change in experiences, CCP needs to offer us a new upper end mining experience in addition to the current mining experience that is dynamic, affected by the pilots actual skill, provides more variation of ships and fittings and offers more rewards based on real time activities.
3. CCP must begin to include anti-botting technologies into the client.
4. Miners deserve more ships, drones and mods!
5. CCP needs to make the small barges meaningful!
6. CCP needs to finally make belt spawns based on the dynamic experience found in exploration sites as promised years ago! End the wait for the days till respawn we have today!
7. Null sec needs to be able to mine everything you need to live there in null!


That is the short version of my agenda, looking forward to the other candidates views on what they bring to the miners of Eve if elected.

I maintain that a balanced war dec system that's accessible, understandable, and perhaps even usable by miners and industrialists is THE best thing you can deliver for highsec miners this CSM term. For 0.0 miners, I suspect there's more gains to be had on the money front, but the changes to war decs will touch every corp, every alliance. As the resident "big scary PVP" candidate I don't expect to get much of the mining vote, but making sure an authoritative voice on wardecs is on the same level as the 0.0 power bloc candidates when we talk about the Inferno expansion is too important not to fight for every constituency.

1. Yes

2. I strongly agree, and said so on Vote Match. An interactive, dynamic mining mechanics will be both more fun and less susceptible to botting (EDIT: And I really hate bots). But as far as priorities, I don't see the rest of the CSM let alone CCP agree to re-prioritize resources for the 2012 expansions to deliver this. Those resources were just recently re-prioritized in the face of the Summer of Rage at the cost of massive player energy, CSM political capital, and a sizable chunk of CCP's employees to get us Inferno and the upcoming re-look at the sov system. You got a viable plan for convincing Mitanni + the other CSMs to push CCP to devote resources from those features Issler?

3. CCP is already doing this, to the dismay of the CSM and those with security backgrounds. A technical arms race alone will not win the war on botting. The CSM needs to push CCP for more transparency about their anti-botting efforts, even if it's just to the CSM under NDA, and keep reinforcing the value that a behavioral identification + forensic approach add to those efforts. EDIT: Did I mention how much I hate bots?

4. Again, at the expense of what? The art dept will have to go make each ship, module, and drone besides the game design side of it. What specific items do you see need to be created and what of the current efforts, such as under-used ship class rebalancing, improved nebulae, the V3 graphics updates, skinnable ships, improved missile and explosion effects should be put on the back burner to get them in? What about frequently requested ships such as a supercapital hunting subcap and new T3 ships (frigate or otherwise)?

5. I think the Covetor and Skiff fall within the under-used ship category. I don't think they should be pushed ahead of Electronic Attack Ships, tier 1 BC, or Black Ops but I definitely think they shouldn't be at the back of the line, especially if industry has a bigger role in sov 3.0

6. Might be missing something here but isn't a re-spawning exploration site a bit redundant? If you mine it out, find another one. If you aren't in 0.0 spending the money for upgrades, well yeah you might have to explore a bit further to find a grav site. If you're talking about making the fixed belts not fixed anymore, that's a *big* change and shouldn't be taken lightly, without considering the impact on casual miners and PVPers.

7. 100% agree. There's a lot of demand from 0.0 guys to have more industrial capacity in their 0.0 holdings, which means the best chance for results for the mineral lovers out there to get some direct content/buffs to income potential is during the sov 3.0 revamp. I know Mitanni + the 0.0 guys are keen to see this, I know Meissa is keen to see this. I'm keen to see it in the larger context of a 0.0 which can export to empire instead of always importing from Jita and which has a dynamic development system that different types of alliances can use to promote their gameplay/PVE priorities.

Frankly Issler, I think you do miners a disservice with your campaign approach. You might be able to make them feel good convincing them a vote for you is a vote for someone "like them" but when their gameplay experience hasn't improved by this time next year in spite of your promises I don't think they will be as happy. Think you're cool, but if you're gonna come at candidates I'm coming back with some real talk. I look forward to your response.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-02-28 22:54:55 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Since I haven't been in some of the recent voice debates I'll bring my major issue here.

For the other CSM 7 candidates,

What will you be pressuring CCP to do for the miners of Eve?

What I'll be doing is:

1. The primary source of minerals needs to be from mining!
2. Mining has gone 8 years+ with no real change in experiences, CCP needs to offer us a new upper end mining experience in addition to the current mining experience that is dynamic, affected by the pilots actual skill, provides more variation of ships and fittings and offers more rewards based on real time activities.
3. CCP must begin to include anti-botting technologies into the client.
4. Miners deserve more ships, drones and mods!
5. CCP needs to make the small barges meaningful!
6. CCP needs to finally make belt spawns based on the dynamic experience found in exploration sites as promised years ago! End the wait for the days till respawn we have today!
7. Null sec needs to be able to mine everything you need to live there in null!


That is the short version of my agenda, looking forward to the other candidates views on what they bring to the miners of Eve if elected.

Issler Dainze
The Miners's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate


These largely line up with my positions and indeed the positions I took during my previous run for the CSM. There are some obvious ideas to balance the mineral supply and make mining a bigger part, this will push up the prices of all minerals and make mining more profitable.

For example, I'm a big fan of removing named module drops from NPCs and replacing them with broken modules. Broken modules can be turned into equivalent named modules by adding minerals, so new demand is created.

Another less direct miner boost would be to rework refine rates at stations across hi-sec to increase the mineral loss. Specifcally we see Military Stations with 50% refine rates and Mining Stations with 35% rates, this is ass backwards. I'd propose 35% rates for most stations, with factories getting 40% and the dedicated mining corps being hte only places to get that 50% refine rate in hi-sec.

Now, removing asteroid belts sounds alluring, but, it does raise the bar for newbies, and also we have to remember that asteroid belts also serve as hunting grounds for rats. Rat spawning should be made more common near planets and other celestial bodies to compensate for this.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#11 - 2012-02-28 23:32:37 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:


1. Yes

2. I strongly agree, and said so on Vote Match. An interactive, dynamic mining mechanics will be both more fun and less susceptible to botting (EDIT: And I really hate bots). But as far as priorities, I don't see the rest of the CSM let alone CCP agree to re-prioritize resources for the 2012 expansions to deliver this. Those resources were just recently re-prioritized in the face of the Summer of Rage at the cost of massive player energy, CSM political capital, and a sizable chunk of CCP's employees to get us Inferno and the upcoming re-look at the sov system. You got a viable plan for convincing Mitanni + the other CSMs to push CCP to devote resources from those features Issler?

3. CCP is already doing this, to the dismay of the CSM and those with security backgrounds. A technical arms race alone will not win the war on botting. The CSM needs to push CCP for more transparency about their anti-botting efforts, even if it's just to the CSM under NDA, and keep reinforcing the value that a behavioral identification + forensic approach add to those efforts. EDIT: Did I mention how much I hate bots?

4. Again, at the expense of what? The art dept will have to go make each ship, module, and drone besides the game design side of it. What specific items do you see need to be created and what of the current efforts, such as under-used ship class rebalancing, improved nebulae, the V3 graphics updates, skinnable ships, improved missile and explosion effects should be put on the back burner to get them in? What about frequently requested ships such as a supercapital hunting subcap and new T3 ships (frigate or otherwise)?

5. I think the Covetor and Skiff fall within the under-used ship category. I don't think they should be pushed ahead of Electronic Attack Ships, tier 1 BC, or Black Ops but I definitely think they shouldn't be at the back of the line, especially if industry has a bigger role in sov 3.0

6. Might be missing something here but isn't a re-spawning exploration site a bit redundant? If you mine it out, find another one. If you aren't in 0.0 spending the money for upgrades, well yeah you might have to explore a bit further to find a grav site. If you're talking about making the fixed belts not fixed anymore, that's a *big* change and shouldn't be taken lightly, without considering the impact on casual miners and PVPers.

7. 100% agree. There's a lot of demand from 0.0 guys to have more industrial capacity in their 0.0 holdings, which means the best chance for results for the mineral lovers out there to get some direct content/buffs to income potential is during the sov 3.0 revamp. I know Mitanni + the 0.0 guys are keen to see this, I know Meissa is keen to see this. I'm keen to see it in the larger context of a 0.0 which can export to empire instead of always importing from Jita and which has a dynamic development system that different types of alliances can use to promote their gameplay/PVE priorities.

Frankly Issler, I think you do miners a disservice with your campaign approach. You might be able to make them feel good convincing them a vote for you is a vote for someone "like them" but when their gameplay experience hasn't improved by this time next year in spite of your promises I don't think they will be as happy. Think you're cool, but if you're gonna come at candidates I'm coming back with some real talk. I look forward to your response.


Thanks for responding!

I'll comment on a some of your answers since we seem to agree about a lot of things.

1. Awesome!

2. I don't think we can get changes in the 2012 time frame. But we have to get CCP to get those changes in the pipe sooner rather than later. I think my ability to get the other CSM members to agree to include mining as part of the CSM 7/CCP interactions will depend on the amount of support I can get from the miners. Also I need to work as part of the CSM 7 team. I can't be like Ank that only seemed to wanted to talk about specific aspects of FW mechanics and medals. So I recognize I need to go along to get along.

3. I have a security background as well (in fact just came out of a security review of the product I'm driving development of!) and I think it has to be a multi-faceted approach that combines technology as one part of the solution. So I strongly disagree that technology can be used to help solve the problem of bots.

4. Why don't miners deserve new ships and mods? I'm more interested in more mining content then more nebula work and better missile explosions. I expect most miners will agree.

5. Glad you agree they deserve some attention.

6. And if the system in mined out you wait and wait. CCP has already said they would do this, so I say, lets get it done.

7. Awesome!

I don't see how being the CSM to represent the interest of miners does them a disservice. Any CSM that promises that they can get any new content delivered by CCP in a year is making a promise that likely can't keep. But the sooner someone in the CSM start conversations with CCP about improving mining (and not just with more isk/hour) the sooner miners will see something in game.

By the way, I wasn't coming at you, I was giving you a chance to show you what you think about mining. You had some good answers as always!

I'd love to continue discussing this with you or any other CSM 7 candidate. I think miners, which are a large segment of Eve deserve to know what the CSM candidate think about mining.

Thanks again!

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#12 - 2012-02-28 23:35:35 UTC
Aiifa wrote:
Would removing asteroid belts and increasing grav site spawn rate be completely ridiculous?


It is an idea that deserves consideration!

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#13 - 2012-02-28 23:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Issler Dainze
Skye Aurorae wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Since I haven't been in some of the recent voice debates I'll bring my major issue here.

For the other CSM 7 candidates,

What will you be pressuring CCP to do for the miners of Eve?

What I'll be doing is:

1. The primary source of minerals needs to be from mining!
2. Mining has gone 8 years+ with no real change in experiences, CCP needs to offer us a new upper end mining experience in addition to the current mining experience that is dynamic, affected by the pilots actual skill, provides more variation of ships and fittings and offers more rewards based on real time activities.
3. CCP must begin to include anti-botting technologies into the client.
4. Miners deserve more ships, drones and mods!
5. CCP needs to make the small barges meaningful!
6. CCP needs to finally make belt spawns based on the dynamic experience found in exploration sites as promised years ago! End the wait for the days till respawn we have today!
7. Null sec needs to be able to mine everything you need to live there in null!


That is the short version of my agenda, looking forward to the other candidates views on what they bring to the miners of Eve if elected.

Issler Dainze
The Miners's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate


These largely line up with my positions and indeed the positions I took during my previous run for the CSM. There are some obvious ideas to balance the mineral supply and make mining a bigger part, this will push up the prices of all minerals and make mining more profitable.

For example, I'm a big fan of removing named module drops from NPCs and replacing them with broken modules. Broken modules can be turned into equivalent named modules by adding minerals, so new demand is created.

Another less direct miner boost would be to rework refine rates at stations across hi-sec to increase the mineral loss. Specifcally we see Military Stations with 50% refine rates and Mining Stations with 35% rates, this is ass backwards. I'd propose 35% rates for most stations, with factories getting 40% and the dedicated mining corps being hte only places to get that 50% refine rate in hi-sec.

Now, removing asteroid belts sounds alluring, but, it does raise the bar for newbies, and also we have to remember that asteroid belts also serve as hunting grounds for rats. Rat spawning should be made more common near planets and other celestial bodies to compensate for this.


Thanks for responding!

I'd sort of point out that you actually are a supporter of miner griefing in your game play, which may not be a popular thing for miners when they choose who to vote for but thanks for some very reasonable comments about mining.

I think reviewing the refining rates makes some sense but I would like to make minerals from drones and mods less interesting by making the cost to reprocess them match or exceed the market value of the minerals. Make the reprocessing cost match or exceed the value of the minerals and problem solved! They are no longer an interesting revenue source.

Thanks for joining the conversation and best of luck in the upcoming elections!

Issler
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-03-01 03:24:20 UTC
I know it has maybe been referenced but there is some good reading in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59357

I personally like the ideas that do their best to be friendly to miners while being less so to bots. If we cannot ban them completely let us at least make it harder for them and turn their production down a notch.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
asidburn Enaka
The 501st Legion
#15 - 2012-03-08 08:46:18 UTC
i just want to let everyone know about this scammer claming to be giving plex for votes dont be caught falling for this scam vote aganist darius III member of interstellar eXodus {IE-EX} they are scaming people pass the word on to everyone you can and vote aganist these undeserving jerks here is a copy of the chat log as proof of there unworthy actions!!!!!!!!

asidburn Enaka > what do i need to do
Darius III > http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=480 go there
Darius III > vote for me then paste the message you got after vote cast into this chat
asidburn Enaka > your vote has been registered. We thank you for your participation.
Darius III > Thanks man
Darius III > that concludes our business
Darius III > Fly safe
asidburn Enaka > and what about the contract
asidburn Enaka > i will have my alliance vote aganist you about 250 people
asidburn Enaka > and then where will you be
asidburn Enaka > send me the contract and i will have them vote for you
asidburn Enaka > this is what we call a test of charecture
Darius III > Have them vote against me
Darius III > Sorry for the ssam
Darius III > But I wouldnt sleep at night if I didnt do everything in my power to make syure that Goons dont ruin this CSM
asidburn Enaka > your an idiot all your going to do is send more votes to the goons
Darius III > not really
Darius III > Goons will win chairman nbo matetr what, doesnt matter
Darius III > nothing can stop them
Darius III > and thats a real shame
asidburn Enaka > well you just lost 243 votes
asidburn Enaka > got 1 lost 243
Darius III > Didnt have them anyway
Darius III > didnt lose anything
Darius III > Just please dont make forum post about me, it would ruin my campaign
asidburn Enaka > not to mentone att the isk spam bans you r about to get
asidburn Enaka > too late
asidburn Enaka > and i just copyed this conv
asidburn Enaka > so i can post
Darius III > You wouldnt dare do it
Darius III > You too lazy anyway
Darius III > I dont have a thing to worry about
asidburn Enaka > haha i play eve 8 hrs a day and im retired all i have is time
Darius III > no lazy bones like you would waste their time. LOL so much for your empty threats LOL

rember i dont care who you vote for just dont voter for the