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Why Fly Gallente?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#141 - 2012-02-27 19:28:43 UTC
Voith wrote:

There is only one pvp meta that matters for 0.0 - massive fleets.

See the problem?

It is funny to see the shifting goal posts you have laid out. First it was people just wanted Gallente to be overpowered by having good fleet and small gang ships, like all the other races. Then it was that gallente are so overpowered in small gangs, except most people still fly minmatar for those. Now it is that "well, large fleets don't really count as pvp".

Stop being a publord, admit you made a mistake and move on.


That's not shifting goalposts because the second statement in no way contradicts the first. I'd argue its more of me saying the same thing in a dozen different ways so that nullbrains might figure out that they're being dinosaurs.

I think you might be arguing that the reason that only massive fleets matter in 0.0 is because they are the primary determiner of Sov - and to a point you're right. However, you're only right to a point. The problem with your thinking is as follows:
- Gallente works fine in small gang PVP - which is where the majority of the PVP in the game happens. Even in 0.0, the majority of the PVP is smaller gang PVP. Thus, Gallente actually work fine in the OVERWHELMING majority of the PVP situations in the game.
- NPC 0.0 doesn't have to worry about your lousy sov.
- 0.0 goes months (sometimes years it seems) without major brouhahas. Your "massive fleets" barely even exist then.

However, addressing the fact that Gallente (really, blasters) don't work so well in massive fleets: Yes, its true. And really it makes sense to have a place where they are both strong and another where they are weak. It gives everyone somewhere to fly and win. In other words: Hyperions and Megathrons don't really do the same kinds of things that Abaddons and Rokhs do. And thats ok - because that door swings both ways.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#142 - 2012-02-27 21:16:49 UTC
Two things:
1) Active repping bonus on the Gallente BC really hurts them for baseline fleets.

Instead of modifying the Myrm (which everybody loves for active tanking), CCP ought to replace the active rep bonus on the Brutix to a turret bonus. That would be enough to make them very viable for various BC centric fleets.

2) BS fleets...

Somebody specifically tried to keep the Hyperion from becoming a fleet vessel. Look at its Targeting Range compared to the other Tier 3 BS. It is way out of line (75km versus 93km to 112km for the other BS).

So now a Tier 2 BS (Megathron) must compete against Tier 3 BS (Abaddon, Rokh, Maelstrom) in fleet work.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-02-27 21:35:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

No, its actually quite alive to the rest of Eve. Hell, its even alive in 0.0 though you refuse to admit it.


O rly? When was the last time you saw a close range gang of 20? 15? Hell, even 10 guys. People who fly organized gangs of any size don't fly close range because Gallente ships are not fast enough to actually apply dps, and anyone else is already flying mid range because they can get the same dps without actually getting into web range. Any other race's gunships can apply dps without having to worry about speed as much because their range is far enough or they are actually fast enough to catch things. Not so with Gallente BCs or cruisers. It is still the case that if you run into anything that isn't more heavily plated than you, you aren't going to out pace them, and you don't have the range to match them at long point range (armor or shield tanked, this remains true). I see a lot that happens in low sec, and I have yet to see a close range fleet that I didn't organize myself.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but Gallente is not slow - certainly not since they got boosted. Its one thing to complain about facts (like Blasters being the shortest range weapon platform), its quite another to just make **** up to complain about.


Yes they are slow, and I've already explained why, unless you think its balanced to give a ship a nominal shield tank and then send it into the middle of everyone else's optimal, and expect it to be useful based on slightly higher dps numbers than other ships. In order to fit your ship properly, you have to compromise to get it where it needs to be. The problem with Gallente gunships is that there is no effective compromise for them. Because the range is so short, they have to be fast, but in order to be fast enough to actually catch someone and apply dps, they have to sacrifice low slots for prop mods, which in turn means they have to sacrifice damage on a shield fit, and tank and damage on an armor fit.

For close range to work you need speed to actually apply dps, you need tank to survive long enough to outlast the other guy while your dps does the work, and you need dps that's high enough to justify fitting close range guns over a medium range platform. Gallente BCs and cruisers can be fit to do two of these things, but they cannot do all three, and that is why they fail at their ostensible purpose. I've said it before that for a Gallente blaster ship to win a fight, he has to rely on the enemy to make a mistake or blind luck, there is a point that nothing he himself can do, whether through planning or ship fittings or pilot skill, can allow him to win the fight on his own merits. He either catches the ship he's fighting and kills it, or he doesn't and that's it.
Noisrevbus
#144 - 2012-02-27 22:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Julius Foederatus wrote:

O rly? When was the last time you saw a close range gang of 20? 15? Hell, even 10 guys. People who fly organized gangs of any size don't fly close range because Gallente ships are not fast enough to actually apply dps


This is getting so thick i'm no longer sure how we could possibly get through to you.

You repeat an oppinion with blank statements over and over, though you never provide any tangible examples, discuss how or why. Stating blank "short range ships need speed", "close range is what Gallente is for" or "propmods make ships go faster" does not discuss any percieved issues with Gallente.

Clearly, examples (killboards, movies), comparisons (listing potential ship-speeds) or reasoning back and forth will not bite - so how can we help you?

It's pretty funny reading your statements here when over in the political threads on FHC you have alliances arguing about who made the Deimos rush concept first (in recent eras) Roll, find those public threads i refer to and "your day" will have come. You can also click my name here for older posts i've made on the topic of rush-speed to find links to old movies that detail the concept for you. You can also continue to be defiant and pull some more slogans out, of course, which is nothing less than what i expect at this point.

On a related note, with the Gallente- and AF-buffs it's going to be interesting to see if someone pulls off a Gallente-version of the old "Drams and dp Scimis" soon.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-02-27 23:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Liang Nuren wrote:
Voith wrote:

There is only one pvp meta that matters for 0.0 - massive fleets.

See the problem?

It is funny to see the shifting goal posts you have laid out. First it was people just wanted Gallente to be overpowered by having good fleet and small gang ships, like all the other races. Then it was that gallente are so overpowered in small gangs, except most people still fly minmatar for those. Now it is that "well, large fleets don't really count as pvp".

Stop being a publord, admit you made a mistake and move on.


That's not shifting goalposts because the second statement in no way contradicts the first. I'd argue its more of me saying the same thing in a dozen different ways so that nullbrains might figure out that they're being dinosaurs.

I think you might be arguing that the reason that only massive fleets matter in 0.0 is because they are the primary determiner of Sov - and to a point you're right. However, you're only right to a point. The problem with your thinking is as follows:
- Gallente works fine in small gang PVP - which is where the majority of the PVP in the game happens. Even in 0.0, the majority of the PVP is smaller gang PVP. Thus, Gallente actually work fine in the OVERWHELMING majority of the PVP situations in the game.
- NPC 0.0 doesn't have to worry about your lousy sov.
- 0.0 goes months (sometimes years it seems) without major brouhahas. Your "massive fleets" barely even exist then.

However, addressing the fact that Gallente (really, blasters) don't work so well in massive fleets: Yes, its true. And really it makes sense to have a place where they are both strong and another where they are weak. It gives everyone somewhere to fly and win. In other words: Hyperions and Megathrons don't really do the same kinds of things that Abaddons and Rokhs do. And thats ok - because that door swings both ways.

-Liang

"Small gang PvP" is the biggest load of bullshit in the history of MMOs.

First off, where are you getting this that "small gang pvp" is the majority? You're pulling that straight from your ass and have nothing to back it up.

How many of those "small gang" fights involve two sides fighting? I've done more than my share of "SMALL HARDKKKORE GANG ELITE PVP". Most of the time it was a 5v1 gang bang popping someone slow on docking, or flying with out a scout. The number of real honest to god small gang FIGHTS probably wasn't even 1 in 20.

Even scrolling through the last 10 or so kills on your KB they where all 2v1 odds or higher, frequently in the 4v1 range. Yeah, you can fly goddamn near anything when you out number the guys 4v1 and win.

That is why "Large Fleet" stuff matters, because all the lowsec scrub posturing aside, fleets are the core of Eve. Eve doesn't make news sites because you 10v1 gang banged a nubblet in a Kestral, or had a "GF GF GF GF" with another wanna-be group.


Edit:Small and Large is all relative. Your gang of 5 hitting a solo guy is no different than a "blob" or "large fleet" of 25 descending on your 5 man gang.
My overall point is that "small gang pvp" is largely bullshit that is used by self-righteous blow hards who can't make friends to justify their social isolation by claiming some sort of superiority over "zerg" corps that try to win out numbering the other guy 5v1. Then you get together with 4 other people and 5v1 some loner. 5v1 is no more "pvp" than a circle jerk is an orgy.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#146 - 2012-02-27 23:49:24 UTC
Voith wrote:

"Small gang PvP" is the biggest load of bullshit in the history of MMOs.

First off, where are you getting this that "small gang pvp" is the majority? You're pulling that straight from your ass and have nothing to back it up.


I get it from the fact that those massive blobs you keep talking about are only really exist in one area of the game - and they're not even common there. Furthermore, the majority of the PVP in the game happens somewhere else. Its a simple fact and you're burying your head in the sand to claim otherwise.

Quote:

How many of those "small gang" fights involve two sides fighting? I've done more than my share of "SMALL HARDKKKORE GANG ELITE PVP". Most of the time it was a 5v1 gang bang popping someone slow on docking, or flying with out a scout. The number of real honest to god small gang FIGHTS probably wasn't even 1 in 20.


So your risk averse 0.0 PVP style carries through to your low sec adventures too. Makes sense, really so I shouldn't be surprised. Suffice it to say that most of the time, its not that way.

Quote:

Even scrolling through the last 10 or so kills on your KB they where all 2v1 odds or higher, frequently in the 4v1 range. Yeah, you can fly goddamn near anything when you out number the guys 4v1 and win.


You obviously didn't look very hard because my last 10 kills or so were outnumbered 40+ vs 10 and the result of a WH POS bash.

Quote:

That is why "Large Fleet" stuff matters, because all the lowsec scrub posturing aside, fleets are the core of Eve. Eve doesn't make news sites because you 10v1 gang banged a nubblet in a Kestral, or had a "GF GF GF GF" with another wanna-be group.


I didn't say that large fleets don't matter. I said that the overwhelming majority of PVP happens outside of them and that Gallente is just fine outside of that specific environment. It is perfectly fine for Gallente (read: blasters) not to scale to environments involving thousands of people.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2012-02-28 00:34:44 UTC
Average ~5:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10576855&kll_times=2011-09-04%2015:43:00,2011-09-04%2017:24:00

Average ~4:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10574448&kll_times=2011-09-04%2008:04:00,2011-09-04%2009:58:00

Average 3:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10566634&kll_times=2011-09-03%2011:38:00,2011-09-03%2012:46:00

Average 5:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10562028&kll_times=2011-09-02%2019:42:00,2011-09-02%2021:15:00



Why is it fine for Gallente not to scale, but it is OK that everyone else does?

The core of the issue is that you think Gallente should be inferior. All other races have viable ships for all kinds of engagements. Gallente does not. You think that this is ok. Why should Gallente be inferior?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#148 - 2012-02-28 00:39:59 UTC
Voith wrote:
Average ~5:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10576855&kll_times=2011-09-04%2015:43:00,2011-09-04%2017:24:00

Average ~4:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10574448&kll_times=2011-09-04%2008:04:00,2011-09-04%2009:58:00

Average 3:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10566634&kll_times=2011-09-03%2011:38:00,2011-09-03%2012:46:00

Average 5:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10562028&kll_times=2011-09-02%2019:42:00,2011-09-02%2021:15:00


I see your links that don't tell the whole story and raise you links that do:
http://vimeo.com/34665420
http://vimeo.com/35131824
http://vimeo.com/35642474
http://vimeo.com/37092811

Quote:
Why is it fine for Gallente not to scale, but it is OK that everyone else does?


They scale DIFFERENTLY. And that's ok.

Quote:
The core of the issue is that you think Gallente should be inferior. All other races have viable ships for all kinds of engagements. Gallente does not. You think that this is ok. Why should Gallente be inferior?


What you don't seem to understand is that Gallente isn't inferior.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2012-02-28 00:44:31 UTC
Lets make Minmatar ships scale "DIFFERENTLY", their HP and damage is reduced by 90% if there are less than 5 other ships around.

Sound good? If not, why?


You can say "different" all you want, but it is nothing but a pathetic and blatant attempt to reframe the argument now that your ignorance and bias is exposed.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#150 - 2012-02-28 00:49:08 UTC
Voith wrote:
Lets make Minmatar ships scale "DIFFERENTLY", their HP and damage is reduced by 90% if there are less than 5 other ships around.

Sound good? If not, why?

You can say "different" all you want, but it is nothing but a pathetic and blatant attempt to reframe the argument now that your ignorance and bias is exposed.


No, they scale differently. Nothing else really scales down as well as Gallente does.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2012-02-28 00:49:15 UTC
Massive fights aren't common?


For real?

We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.

I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#152 - 2012-02-28 00:51:21 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Massive fights aren't common?


For real?

We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.

I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.


Good for you. Small gang PVP is still more common - even in 0.0.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2012-02-28 00:57:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Massive fights aren't common?


For real?

We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.

I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.


Good for you. Small gang PVP is still more common - even in 0.0.

-Liang



True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.

I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2012-02-28 01:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Liang Nuren wrote:
Voith wrote:
Lets make Minmatar ships scale "DIFFERENTLY", their HP and damage is reduced by 90% if there are less than 5 other ships around.

Sound good? If not, why?

You can say "different" all you want, but it is nothing but a pathetic and blatant attempt to reframe the argument now that your ignorance and bias is exposed.


No, they scale differently. Nothing else really scales down as well as Gallente does.

-Liang

Right, so lets nerf the way some other things scale UP!

I mean if it is ok that gallente sucks in fleet, lets nerf the **** out of some stuff so it can't scale down.


All ships now have auto defenders! They will detonate the first 10 missles that would hit a ship every second!

Great idea, m i rite?

CALDARI JUST SCALE DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#155 - 2012-02-28 01:04:12 UTC
Onictus wrote:
True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.

I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them.


Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#156 - 2012-02-28 01:05:02 UTC
Voith wrote:

Right, so lets nerf the way some other things scale UP!

I mean if it is ok that gallente sucks in fleet, lets nerf the **** out of some stuff so it can't scale down.


All ships now have auto defenders! They will detonate the first 10 missles that would hit a ship every second!

Great idea, m i rite?

CALDARI JUST SCALE DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!!


I'm sure its about as great as your plan for fixing Gallente.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2012-02-28 01:10:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.

I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them.


Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente...

-Liang

Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#158 - 2012-02-28 01:13:45 UTC
Voith wrote:

Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.


Huh, what corp is that? ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2012-02-28 01:18:23 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Voith wrote:

Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.


Huh, what corp is that? ;-)

-Liang

The corp you just ditched:
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=battles

(PS you can check corp history from the forums now)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-02-28 01:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.

I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them.


Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente...

-Liang



Incorrect I stopped flying gallente.