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Drone control unit for subcaps
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Durie
WORLDSTAR HIPHOP
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1 - 2012-02-26 06:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Durie
Guns on drone ships always feel a bit awkward. Items like these would let ships with drone bonuses focus on fielding drones.

Small +5m3 drone bay, +5Mbit/s bandwidth, +1 max drone, fitting stats like a small energy neutralizer
Medium +10/+10Mbit/s, +1 max drone, fitting stats like a medium energy neutralizer
Large +25/+25Mbit/s, +1 max drone, fitting stats like a large energy neutralizer

Thoughts?

Edit:
These would be high slot modules, so you would have to sacrifice weapon damage for drone damage. At level 5, they would add 20 dps small/30 dps medium /60 dps large (+50% for drone bonused ships) per high slot module.

For example, the large one would be 2000MW/40tf, so you could fit like 3-4 of them on a dominix with no other guns and a tank+prop mod. However, you would be able use reactor control units instead of damage mods to offset the large fitting requirements.

I decided to throw together an example fit for a dominix.

[Dominix, Dominix Drone Control Unit Example]

Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x11

At level V, this thing has 1045 dps and 103k ehp. However, all of it's damage would come from fielding 11 drones. The ship itself moves about as fast as it's drones, so any target it's drones could reach, it could shoot with blasters anyway. Replacing the Large Drone Control Units with Ion Blaster Cannons and the Reactor Control Units with Magnetic Field Stabilizers gives a similar fit, but with 1258 dps. So dps would actually go down with the extra drones.

I think modules like these would be a nice choice. They would make the ship feel like a real drone boat and give pilots options with trade offs. You couldn't overheat and your drones could be killed, but you would be less vulnerable to tracking disruption, ecm and cap warfare.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-26 07:01:21 UTC
I could see expanding bandwidth, but not max drones, +1/2

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-02-26 07:04:45 UTC
I think you need to balance your design work with other considerations like the current itterations to improve hybrid guns.

Or is this just a way to "twice" improve drone boats?

Especially when it is racially skewed in both instances of the tech.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Pidgeon Saissore
Tyrant's
#4 - 2012-02-26 07:05:54 UTC
You can't touch the drone bandwidth with any kind of module or every ship would instantly become a drone boat. Also for existing droneboats adding drone controls with addded bandwidth would make them completely overpowered. As for adding a drone control unit to non capital ships it could work but would have to take up the turret or launcher slots even though it makes no logical sense as things with extra slots would also become overpowered unless they already have only 50 or less bandwidth but that would make the unit pointless anyway.

A much more practical option is to add drone upgrades to match the weapon damage/fire rate upgrades
Durie
WORLDSTAR HIPHOP
Brotherhood of Spacers
#5 - 2012-02-26 07:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Durie
hmm, I guess I didn't mention it, but I was thinking that these would be high slot modules, so you would have to sacrifice weapon damage for drone damage. In addition, the grid requirements would be relatively large. Is 20 dps small/30 dps medium /60 dps large (+50% for drone bonused ships) too much for a single high slot?

For example, the large one would be 2000MW/40tf, so you could fit like 3-4 of them on a dominix with no other guns and a tank+prop mod. However, you would be able use reactor control units instead of damage mods to offset the large fitting requirements.

After seeing the feedback, I think boosting drone bay capacity would be a mistake. If the items just boosted bandwidth and number, it would restrict them to the drone ships (which have larger drone bays than bandwidth) they were designed for.

@grumpy, so because hybrids were recently looked at, and gallente ships use hybrids (along with caldari ships), drones shouldn't see any changes? That doesn't really make much sense. In addition, the problem is that drone ships don't feel like they are using their turret systems at all so those ships haven't really benefited from the hybrid buff much.

I decided to throw together an example fit for a dominix.

[Dominix, Dominix Drone Control Unit Example]

Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I
Heavy Drone Control Unit I

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x11

At level V, this thing has 1045 dps and 103k ehp. However, all of it's damage would come from fielding 11 drones. The ship itself moves about as fast as it's drones, so any target it's drones could reach, it could shoot with blasters anyway. Replacing the Large Drone Control Units with Ion Blaster Cannons and the Reactor Control Units with Magnetic Field Stabilizers gives a similar fit, but with 1258 dps. So dps would actually go down with the extra drones.

I think modules like these would be a nice choice. They would make the ship feel like a real drone boat and give pilots options with trade offs. You couldn't overheat and your drones could be killed, but you would be less vulnerable to tracking disruption, ecm and cap warfare.

Assuming these things give +bandwidth and +1 drone only, try fitting some ships (use a neutralizer for the grid requirements) and see if you can make something truly broken.
StoneDwarf
Inner Hell
#6 - 2012-02-26 09:46:11 UTC
Durie wrote:
Guns on drone ships always feel a bit awkward. Items like these would let ships with drone bonuses focus on fielding drones.

Small +5m3 drone bay, +5Mbit/s bandwidth, +1 max drone, fitting stats like a small energy neutralizer
Medium +10/+10, +1 max drone, fitting stats like a medium energy neutralizer
Large +25/+25, +1 max drone, fitting stats like a large energy neutralizer

Thoughts?

Dominix+2 heavy neut+3 DCU = TERMINATOR!
Bad idea. VERY bad.
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-02-26 11:12:43 UTC
taking into consideration that these prototype mods would NOT increase bandwidth nor drone space much like there capital counterparts and then looking at your example of how a domi (drone queen) would perform sporting his new capabilities

the stats actually look balanced but then thats only one example

what would this turn the ishtar into ? ;)

supported......for now :P

:)
StoneDwarf
Inner Hell
#8 - 2012-02-26 11:56:08 UTC
Actually, I'd be glad if CCP adds this. Even if it will just add bandwidth an +1 additional drone/
But I guess only 3-4 ships will use it.
So why not just add +1 drone per level for that ships? (Dominix, Ishtar, Gila, Rattle)
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-02-26 11:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Durie wrote:
@grumpy, so because hybrids were recently looked at, and gallente ships use hybrids (along with caldari ships), drones shouldn't see any changes? That doesn't really make much sense. In addition, the problem is that drone ships don't feel like they are using their turret systems at all so those ships haven't really benefited from the hybrid buff much.


I think its a fair comment to at least question why you feel the need to improve drone boats and therefore significantly improve upon them, whilst also having other considerations of racial tech influencing improvements which havent as yet been finalised.

Especially when your proposal affords no balance considerations for others and is purely a buff favouring drone boats.

With these two combined improvements, how does that effect the current situation with say Galentte capabilities. How for instance might it influence faction warfare between Galentte and others? (that despite player opportunities to cross train and use alternative races tech)

So i think it makes a lot of sense to ask these questions.

Not too bothered about you answering as I can see its just a please buff my prefered skill set / ship choice request and blinkered to the big picture.Sorry if I offended your design with balance considerations.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Durie
WORLDSTAR HIPHOP
Brotherhood of Spacers
#10 - 2012-02-26 20:44:03 UTC
I guess you could call this a buff for drone ships since it would give an option that wouldn't be useful to fit on other ships. However, I don't think drone ships are currently under powered, and wouldn't want this to be a buff, but rather an option. In the dominix example posted, the blaster version does 25% more damage than the drone version, and almost 40% more when you include the fact that you can overheat blasters but not overheat drones.

Ishtars and Gilas would not benefit as much from this because they could never fit the large units and would be restricted to the +10Mbit/s version.

I updated the OP with some more specifics.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-02-26 22:33:23 UTC
Durie wrote:
I guess you could call this a buff for drone ships since it would give an option that wouldn't be useful to fit on other ships. However, I don't think drone ships are currently under powered, and wouldn't want this to be a buff, but rather an option. In the dominix example posted, the blaster version does 25% more damage than the drone version, and almost 40% more when you include the fact that you can overheat blasters but not overheat drones.

Ishtars and Gilas would not benefit as much from this because they could never fit the large units and would be restricted to the +10Mbit/s version.

I updated the OP with some more specifics.

This gave me an idea. How about a high slot module that allows you to overload drones? Say this is some kind of modification to your drone transceiver, and overheating it improves drone damage. If it breaks, it breaks the transceiver so that drones will go inactive and will not respond to commands. Reversing this effect would require either repairing the module or removing it (not offlining though).

The module could, for example, be an active module that has no effect (or a very small effect) when activated and uses no cap, but adds 15% drone damage while overheated.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Durie
WORLDSTAR HIPHOP
Brotherhood of Spacers
#12 - 2012-02-27 00:19:34 UTC
Overloading drones is probably an interesting enough topic for a thread of its own. For now, I would just suggest that the drones take hull damage when overheated and explode when they run out. The lack of overheating is just one of the reasons why I feel like the options available to drone boats are awkward and lacking.

It's not that I'm some drone fanboy, it's actually the opposite. I've been using missiles and projectiles mostly and have really appreciated and enjoyed the complexity that comes with choosing from thousands of potential combinations including:
-variation of weapons (auto cannons or artillery as well as about 15 variations of each per size category)
-ammunition
-modules (gyros, tracking computers and tracking enhancers)
-rigs (5 different projectile rigs)
-piloting (managing distance, velocity and overheating)
In almost all these cases, there is a trade-off between offense and defense. By comparison, drones and their modules, rigs and tactics are relatively boring. I think adding these drone modules to the game would create some interesting options for pilots to consider.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-02-27 00:27:22 UTC
I'm not a drone fanboy either. I mean, I use drones as a defensive weapon, but currently not much else. I'd like to see a little bit more versatility with drones.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#14 - 2012-02-27 15:34:17 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
With these two combined improvements, how does that effect the current situation with say Galentte capabilities. How for instance might it influence faction warfare between Galentte and others? (that despite player opportunities to cross train and use alternative races tech)

So i think it makes a lot of sense to ask these questions.

Gallente might be the poster-child race for drones, but they are hardly the only drone users.

I would love to see this, and it's end effects on the Arbitrator and it's T2 variants.

I also think it would be interesting for each race to have at least 1 subcap drone boat to play with.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#15 - 2012-02-27 15:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
No drones dont need that, drones need a buff of a different kind.

They should be much tougher to kill, as they're the only weapon system that can be killed off in fight.
Heavy and medium drones need a speed buff, and tracking buff as well.
Light drones need speed and tracking buff, all light drones should be comparable to warriors in that regard.

Droneships are least desirable in PVP and incursions just because of that reasons above. Drones are too slow, have tracking issues of turrets and travel time issues of missiles and are too easy to kill off. So drones have even more drawbacks than missiles.

Their only advantage is the ability to carry drones with different speed/size tracking and damage type.

In other games with pet classes pet usually has HP comparable to that of a hero, or slightly lower, and does comparable damage too, so an opponnent must make a decision whether to engage the pet or pet owner. However in Eve going after drones is almost always the best. I'm thinking of something to offset that, but unfortunately I dont have a good idea right now.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2012-02-27 15:50:23 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
No drones dont need that, drones need a buff of a different kind.

They should be much tougher to kill, as they're the only weapon system that can be killed off in fight.
Heavy and medium drones need a speed buff, and tracking buff as well.
Light drones need speed and tracking buff, all light drones should be comparable to warriors in that regard.

Droneships are least desirable in PVP and incursions just because of that reasons above. Drones are too slow, have tracking issues of turrets and travel time issues of missiles and are too easy to kill off. So drones have even more drawbacks than missiles.

Their only advantage is the ability to carry drones with different speeds tracking and damage type.

In other games with pet classes pet usually has HP comparable to that of a hero, or slightly lower, and does comparable damage too, so an opponnent must make a decision whether to engage the pet or pet owner. However in Eve going after drones is almost always the best. I'm thinking of something to offset that, but unfortunately I dont have a good idea right now.

So maybe a module that links the drone's shields to the parent ship's shields could be useful?

It could require the parent ship to remain within a certain range to operate, but at that point firing on the drones would be pointless, as they would have a smaller sig than the parent, but share the same shield effectively.

Downside? The drones all lose their shields when the drone ship does too. This would also make drone ships logistically supportable more effectively by shield reppers too.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#17 - 2012-02-27 15:54:27 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:
...

So maybe a module that links the drone's shields to the parent ship's shields could be useful?

It could require the parent ship to remain within a certain range to operate, but at that point firing on the drones would be pointless, as they would have a smaller sig than the parent, but share the same shield effectively.

Downside? The drones all lose their shields when the drone ship does too. This would also make drone ships logistically supportable more effectively by shield reppers too.


Exactly something like that Nikk! Smile
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#18 - 2012-02-27 16:58:46 UTC
Given that the last "drone rebalancing" from CCP resulted in us getting fewer drones, perhaps a suggestion that would be more amenable to the development team would be as follows:
Small DCU: +5% Drone Damage/HP, 10PG, 20CPU
Medium DCU: +10% Drone Damage/HP, 200PG, 40CPU
Large DCU: +20% Drone Damage/HP, 2100PG, 70CPU

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#19 - 2012-02-27 17:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Given that the last "drone rebalancing" from CCP resulted in us getting fewer drones, perhaps a suggestion that would be more amenable to the development team would be as follows:
Small DCU: +5% Drone Damage/HP, 10PG, 20CPU
Medium DCU: +10% Drone Damage/HP, 200PG, 40CPU
Large DCU: +20% Drone Damage/HP, 2100PG, 70CPU


Where will neuts fit then, I ask you, on Gila/Ishtar/Pilgrim/Curse? DCU isn't the optimal solution as problem isnt with droneships being underpowered, but drones themselves underpowered.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#20 - 2012-02-27 17:14:58 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Given that the last "drone rebalancing" from CCP resulted in us getting fewer drones, perhaps a suggestion that would be more amenable to the development team would be as follows:
Small DCU: +5% Drone Damage/HP, 10PG, 20CPU
Medium DCU: +10% Drone Damage/HP, 200PG, 40CPU
Large DCU: +20% Drone Damage/HP, 2100PG, 70CPU


Where will neuts fit then, I ask you, on Gila/Ishtar/Pilgrim/Curse? DCU isn't the optimal solution as problem isnt with droneships being underpowered, but drones themselves underpowered.

It's a tradeoff.

You want a neut+drone fit you have to give up either drone DPS or neut capacity.

You must choose, but choose wisely.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
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