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solo, jamming a issue
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Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-02-22 18:12:38 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
Monty Kvaran wrote:
Its not reasonable to expect to be effective SOLO, in a T1 Cruiser, against a gang of frigates with ECM support coming from a T2 cruiser.

The problem is the fact that it would be reasonable to expect that if it weren't for ECM being so powerful. Like let's say it's a gang of frigates with EWAR support coming from a T2 cruiser. Is the support cruiser a big deal in regards to the outcome of the battle? Well that depends on whether it is a Target Painting Rapier that will make you take more damage from your enemies, or a Falcon that will decimate any chance you had of even locking your enemy.

The Rapier kills you with his web genius
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-02-22 18:15:15 UTC
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
I started carrying F.O.F. and it's pretty funny to see how quickly the ECM ships align/warp out if they get hit only once.

Thats because they have no tank unlike other recons
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-02-22 20:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryder 3vyn
Zyress wrote:
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
Monty Kvaran wrote:
Its not reasonable to expect to be effective SOLO, in a T1 Cruiser, against a gang of frigates with ECM support coming from a T2 cruiser.

The problem is the fact that it would be reasonable to expect that if it weren't for ECM being so powerful. Like let's say it's a gang of frigates with EWAR support coming from a T2 cruiser. Is the support cruiser a big deal in regards to the outcome of the battle? Well that depends on whether it is a Target Painting Rapier that will make you take more damage from your enemies, or a Falcon that will decimate any chance you had of even locking your enemy.

The Rapier kills you with his web genius

You ******* moron... that's not even close to as effective as jamming. The webbed anti-frigate platform can still put up one hell of a fight while webbed, try that while being jammed the whole fight.

As a matter of fact... the Falcon would decimate the enemy anti-frigate platform's chance of a fight no matter what, really. But if it was a Rapier with some webs and TPs... let's say you go there in an Assault Missile Drake or a double web double neut armor Cane - you will in all probability destroy the entire frigate gang and might even be able to kill the support Rapier to boot if you scram or web him... genius.

Zyress wrote:
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
I started carrying F.O.F. and it's pretty funny to see how quickly the ECM ships align/warp out if they get hit only once.

Thats because they have no tank unlike other recons

Also, Captain 0bvious, thanks for telling us this.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-02-22 22:24:47 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
[quote=Zyress][quote=Ryder 3vyn][quote=Monty Kvaran]Lots of ignorant ranting
You ******* moron... that's not even close to as effective as jamming. The webbed anti-frigate platform can still put up one hell of a fight while webbed, try that while being jammed the whole fight.

As a matter of fact... the Falcon would decimate the enemy anti-frigate platform's chance of a fight no matter what, really. But if it was a Rapier with some webs and TPs... let's say you go there in an Assault Missile Drake or a double web double neut armor Cane - you will in all probability destroy the entire frigate gang and might even be able to kill the support Rapier to boot if you scram or web him... genius.
More ignorant ranting.


When you consider that the jammed ship can just fly away and the webbed ship is screwed I'd consider it 100% more effective than jamming..... oh enlightened one. When you consider that with the small addition of a faction point a Rapier can kite any frigate in the game long enough to kill it since it never needs to move within 30 km range of it. I'm not saying there aren't answers for it, but they don't come in frigate size. If I'm in a frigate and I see a hostile Rapier and a hostile Falcon, Its not the Falcon I'm worried about.
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-02-23 04:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryder 3vyn
Zyress wrote:
When you consider that the jammed ship can just fly away....

When? The situation we were talking about was an effective frigate-killer {Drake or Cane or something} fighting a gang of frigates with a support EWAR cruiser. Why would you be able to just fly away?

Zyress wrote:
....and the webbed ship is screwed....

How is an anti-frigate ship going to be screwed while fighting a gang of frigates just because it's webbed by a support Rapier? Are you using your brain at all?

Zyress wrote:
When you consider that with the small addition of a faction point a Rapier can kite any frigate in the game long enough to kill it since it never needs to move within 30 km range of it. I'm not saying there aren't answers for it, but they don't come in frigate size. If I'm in a frigate and I see a hostile Rapier and a hostile Falcon, Its not the Falcon I'm worried about.

First of all, a Rapier does not need a faction point to kill frigates. Secondly, you seem to be a bit delusional regarding the layout of the situation we were discussing. You might want to re-read a few posts.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#26 - 2012-02-23 04:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Zyress wrote:
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
[quote=Zyress][quote=Ryder 3vyn][quote=Monty Kvaran]Lots of ignorant ranting
You ******* moron... that's not even close to as effective as jamming. The webbed anti-frigate platform can still put up one hell of a fight while webbed, try that while being jammed the whole fight.

As a matter of fact... the Falcon would decimate the enemy anti-frigate platform's chance of a fight no matter what, really. But if it was a Rapier with some webs and TPs... let's say you go there in an Assault Missile Drake or a double web double neut armor Cane - you will in all probability destroy the entire frigate gang and might even be able to kill the support Rapier to boot if you scram or web him... genius.
More ignorant ranting.


When you consider that the jammed ship can just fly away and the webbed ship is screwed I'd consider it 100% more effective than jamming..... oh enlightened one. When you consider that with the small addition of a faction point a Rapier can kite any frigate in the game long enough to kill it since it never needs to move within 30 km range of it. I'm not saying there aren't answers for it, but they don't come in frigate size. If I'm in a frigate and I see a hostile Rapier and a hostile Falcon, Its not the Falcon I'm worried about.


So your argument is that an armorcane fighting a number of frigates is not assuredly scrammed and webbed many times over?

Edit: For the record, http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12395932 If they had a rapier the only thing that would have changed is I might have ended up with a recon killmail. If they had a falcon, I 100% would have died.


2nd edit: ECM is overpowered in small gangs, I dont think anyone who actually flies in small gangs disputes this.
Elder Thorn
Short Bus Buccaneers
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#27 - 2012-02-23 09:35:39 UTC
(god, i don't know why, but it was really hard for me, to write this one in english, usually i am doing better, excuse me if this one is hard to read)


Michael Harari wrote:


2nd edit: ECM is overpowered in small gangs, I dont think anyone who actually flies in small gangs disputes this.


yeah, i agree.

We were roaming with BC and 2 Logis yesterday and encountered another gang.
At the beginning of the fight, they had 1 falcon, taking care of the logis, numbers of BCs were even, they had better dps with 2 Talos, but we had more tank spread over the gang.

While the Falcon jammed the hell out of the Scimis we decided to stay and fight, was still a fair fight, but then a second falcon decloaked and put our DPS close to 0.

I'm not blaming those guys for bringing the falcons, it was effective, they got a kill, we got a kill and i would bring 2 Falcons to a fight aswell, if i have 2 of them in my gang.

But i think that shows, how powerfull a falcon is.
2 Gangs, pretty even fight and 2 falcons can force a whole gang to turn off weapons and run away.

Don't get me wrong, i trained for Falcon aswell, and i used it, aswell as the Rook and the Griffin when i was a rookie.

I think it'll be hard to rebalance ECM.
Lets assume a 1on1 Situation: Recon vs. Battlecruiser
Lets say the BC is a hurricane, pretty much every recon will be able to beat it with use of its bonuses, rapier will dictate range, arazu will damp and stay on range, pilgrim might be a bit in trouble, but curse will absolutly dominate, aswell as rook or Falcon. But, even the Rook can't take much punishment from a cane, so if you miss 2 or 3 cycles of jammers, the cane will tear you apart.
If you'd scale down ECM Strength, they will become useless very soon, which shouldn't be the point of rebalancing, so any ideas on how to fix them? I don't have any...
Andrea Griffin
#28 - 2012-02-23 16:02:04 UTC
Elder Thorn wrote:
(god, i don't know why, but it was really hard for me, to write this one in english, usually i am doing better, excuse me if this one is hard to read).
It's very readable, don't worry about it. Cool

And I do agree that ECM is the bane of small gang / solo combat. Same with off-grid T3 boosters.

Unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. ECCM helps somewhat. FoF missiles can help drive off an attacker, maybe. I like the ECM mechanic in general but it's too punishing for certain styles of PvP.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-02-25 23:34:42 UTC
So you fly solo against a gang with ECM, got jammed and died. Yet if you had replaced their ECM boats with LOGI boats (say they had 1-2 scimitars instead of 1-2 falcons) you still would have died, you still wouldn't have killed anything, but I wonder if you'd be whining?

ECM is part of the rock paper scissors of eve.

Alpha>ECM>Logi>DPS

Alpha can take ecm off the field before the ecm manages to jam too much. ECM can prevent logi from repping. Reps prevent DPS from having too much of an effect. DPS gets shafted a bit but then the term 'DPS' is a very loose one applying to any number of ships, all of shich have diffirent sub-roles.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-02-26 11:01:57 UTC
Baseline is that solo vs group .... the solo loses in most cases.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-02-26 12:42:25 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
So you fly solo against a gang with ECM, got jammed and died. Yet if you had replaced their ECM boats with LOGI boats (say they had 1-2 scimitars instead of 1-2 falcons) you still would have died, you still wouldn't have killed anything, but I wonder if you'd be whining?


Because small gang stuff is fast paced and bullets flying both ways is way more fun for everyone, even if the solo guy is doomed to die somhow.

also time is a major factor in small, low ehp fights those 20 seconds is an eternity every time - once agin not fun


Id rather be giggling about the solo guy that almost killed player X in my gang than gank a guy who couldnt do anything, and have nothing fun to say about it.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-02-26 16:32:32 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
So you fly solo against a gang with ECM, got jammed and died. Yet if you had replaced their ECM boats with LOGI boats (say they had 1-2 scimitars instead of 1-2 falcons) you still would have died, you still wouldn't have killed anything, but I wonder if you'd be whining?


Because small gang stuff is fast paced and bullets flying both ways is way more fun for everyone, even if the solo guy is doomed to die somhow.

also time is a major factor in small, low ehp fights those 20 seconds is an eternity every time - once agin not fun


Id rather be giggling about the solo guy that almost killed player X in my gang than gank a guy who couldnt do anything, and have nothing fun to say about it.

Unfun does not equal overpowered or imbalanced. And the unfun of ecm is subjective. It might be unfun for you, but not necessarily for someone else that's jamming your arse.

Getting my ship instantly alpha'd off the field by 8 tornados isn't fun. My poor nanocane goes through a gate and the moment I uncloak *pop* goes the cane. Should alpha ships be therefore removed from the game?

Being in a cap and getting doomsday'd off the field isn't fun. Should doomsday be removed from the game? Well yes it should Cool, I'd love nothing better then for titans to have only one function, a mobile jump bridge, but that ain't gonna happen.

So HTFU. Ecm may be 'unfun' for some, but that does not make it imbalanced.
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