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Supercap Reballancing

Author
The Economist
Logically Consistent
#21 - 2012-02-24 16:29:24 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:

Really? So when a lone Titan was popping a fleet of BCs all orbiting at the maximum transversal allowed by their guns (AB not MWD), what exactly would your advice be ('run away' doesn't count).


My advice would be stop exaggerating.

If, IF; that really was the case then those must've been shield bc's with sigs almost the size of battleships and pilots that massively suck at manageing their range and transversal and/or huginns grabbing them too. In which scenario nothing in any way broken happened.

[constructive advice; outrange them/pick setups with smaller sigs/ get better at manageing transversal/use neutralizers/increase speed/use capitals against capitals etc etc etc etc etc]
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#22 - 2012-02-24 16:34:53 UTC
There is no easy answer to this.

Its tank vs dps and right now there is no dps that can break the SC fleet tanking structure except bigger blobs of SC.

Maybe if damage was tracked like killmails it wouldn't be such an obsession to get the killmail. If there was an active participation tracking system rather than just an I-Win method to PvP tracking people would be less bent on getting the glorious killmail.

Track "Ioci engaged 700 unique enemies, repelling them with 2 million dps" in addition to the killmails. Then it isn't about who sucks or doesn't PvP because right now it isn't about 'Who is good' or 'Who participates'. It's about who has intell channels to the biggest blobs.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#23 - 2012-02-24 16:54:53 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
While I agree that at some point something will have to be done because we seem to be gaining supercapitals a lot faster than we are losing them and when everyone is flying around in a Nyx or Titan there will not be much point to EVE. Supercaps were meant to be rare but the devs have underestimated the drive of players to have as many of these magic carrots as they can.

Yeah, what will happen will be each major alliance having a First Fleet composed of 100 titans or so and 150 Supercarriers or so, and then all the lesser players will join second, third fleet etc with dreadnaught/carriers and whatnot. Probably battlecruisers would be good, as the titans would be able to kill battleships. Dreadnaughts are for adding DPS against enemy titans.

Though probably all you'd do is hotdrop 250 supercaps on some new alliance with only 10 titans, eh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#24 - 2012-02-24 16:55:56 UTC
Damnit CCP!

Your doing it wrong!

Ban sub caps from the game!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2012-02-24 17:01:15 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

How that? White Noise probably still has a shitload of supercaps and still they are losing to goons due to fail cascade. Raiden on the other hand is rather new in the region but has huge problems to defend themselve against goons without supercaps.
In order to gather a huge number of players you will have to give them something in return. Entrenched alliances can give them sanctums, new alliances can't do that.

Your arguments do not make sense when you look at the empirical facts.


WN did not put up any kind of fight. The one time they tried the leader "forgot to set his alarm" so they all say there playing with themselves while we burned their empire to the ground.

BOB (3 times), NC (before the cascade) the russians many many times, MC, ASCN, Tri multiple times ect all had the biggest blob in their time and were all beaten.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#26 - 2012-02-24 17:02:19 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:


Though probably all you'd do is hotdrop 250 supercaps on some new alliance with only 10 titans, eh.


I think Pandemic Legion's legal team would be all over you if you did that, they have the patent on that I believe Smile
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2012-02-24 17:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Ptraci wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Though probably all you'd do is hotdrop 250 supercaps on some new alliance with only 10 titans, eh.

I think Pandemic Legion's legal team would be all over you if you did that, they have the patent on that I believe Smile

Don't be silly. They haven't hotdropped 10 titans that I've heard of.

Now they've hotdropped frigate roams. And hotdropped titans on welpfleet hurricanes. But they're pretty cautious with their titans, once apparently their blob ran off when charged by a welpfleet. (Possibly because of the danger of being tackled and hotdropped by a ton of dreadnaughts I guess?).

You would probably get to where any real engagement would be trying to bait the enemy titans somewhere so that you can drop a ton of dreadnaughts on them. If successful, your blob will be at a significant advantage to their blob and you can go about bashing POS in relative safety.
baltec1 wrote:
BOB (3 times), NC (before the cascade) the russians many many times, MC, ASCN, Tri multiple times ect all had the biggest blob in their time and were all beaten.

It isn't good to depend too heavily on a single arm of decision. Though if you have an overpowered arm of decision, you should use it as much as possible while it's overpowered.

It would suck to be an alliance (over)depending heavily on turret titans and they somehow got nerfed just as an angry group of people started throwing dreadnaughts around like they were rifters (in comparison).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2012-02-24 17:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Alavaria Fera wrote:

It isn't good to depend too heavily on a single arm of decision. Though if you have an overpowered arm of decision, you should use it as much as possible while it's overpowered.

It would suck to be an alliance (over)depending heavily on turret titans and they somehow got nerfed just as an angry group of people started throwing dreadnaughts around like they were rifters (in comparison).


Good sir, surely you cant be saying that the forces of the anti blue anti coalition coalition rely too much upon titans and have no other plans!
ViRUS Pottage
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-02-24 17:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ViRUS Pottage
The problem isn't the balancing of the ships; it's how available they are. Titans should be able to sit there and plaster a fleet of idiots. The problem is that a group of 2-3 alliance can drop 80 of them. That's when it becomes an issue.

The problem arose when motherships and titans started to show up on the open market. People are becoming too rich in the game, and as such 16-20b is nothing for the average 5 year old playing vet any more. There are single players that are hoarding over 200billion ISK to themselves that they haven't gained from emptying alliance wallets.

The price of supercarriers and titans need to be increased massively. But this can't be done without making people cry about it because those who do have them just made a hell of a lot of money. It's too late to fix the problem now unless some sort of mechanic comes along that limits the number usage of them.

e: So it's either that or just make them totally useless.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-02-24 17:25:15 UTC
Isk is a perfectly valid balancing benchmarch

We have some guys with over a trillion isk in their wallet in GSF. They should be able to alpha 10 titans at once by pressing a button.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Angel Lust
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-02-24 17:27:18 UTC
I wonder what Soundwave will do when goons fields 3000 maels...
and noone can kill them.... Cool
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-02-24 17:32:17 UTC
Sip his coffee and enjoy the fact that he's getting paid to make imaginary spaceships.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-02-24 17:33:59 UTC
Also I'm pretty sure his bosses will enjoy the fact that it takes 45 000$ of subs/plexes a month to run a theoretical 3000 man alphafleet rather than 2250$ for an hypothetical 150-man titan fleet.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Angel Lust
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-02-24 17:38:14 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Also I'm pretty sure his bosses will enjoy the fact that it takes 45 000$ of subs/plexes a month to run a theoretical 3000 man alphafleet rather than 2250$ for an hypothetical 150-man titan fleet.


So... Soundwave + gonns = True then.... ? Cool
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-02-24 18:48:15 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Lol
Learn to play eve....
and..
stop crying..
Every decent pilot knows how to not be hit by a titan Bear

Really? So when a lone Titan was popping a fleet of BCs all orbiting at the maximum transversal allowed by their guns (AB not MWD), what exactly would your advice be ('run away' doesn't count).


You target the titans sub-system that has his officer tracking enhancers. Once you offline those the titan will be hard pressed to track anything sub-capital.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#36 - 2012-02-24 19:43:22 UTC
Angel Lust wrote:
I wonder what Soundwave will do when goons fields 3000 maels...
and noone can kill them.... Cool

Don't be silly, we use drakes a lot more now.

It's more like 5 waves of 3000 drakes or something.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#37 - 2012-02-24 19:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
baltec1 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It isn't good to depend too heavily on a single arm of decision. Though if you have an overpowered arm of decision, you should use it as much as possible while it's overpowered.

It would suck to be an alliance (over)depending heavily on turret titans and they somehow got nerfed just as an angry group of people started throwing dreadnaughts around like they were rifters (in comparison).

Good sir, surely you cant be saying that the forces of the anti blue anti coalition coalition rely too much upon titans and have no other plans!

Oh ho. Well they have tengufleets, which are very ~elite pvp~ and also provide us with great killmails.

Well surely the fact we only want turret titans nerfed to help us means the democratically elected CSM will definitely stomp the Mittani's well thought out, researched and documented evidence for overpoweredness and subsequent need for nerfs.

Cause we're goons and we always lie.


That said, if dreads are more cost effective now, that can only improve (unless titans actually get buffed, you know). Someday BoB 5.0 (these things take time) won't be so daring to swing their "~elite pvp~ titan blob" in people's faces because a dreadnaught fleet might cut it off. Instead we'll be sieging 200 dreads on a POS and daring them to come save it.

What are they gonna do, nerf dreadnaught tracking even more? Haha .... no wait a sec. Luckily my alt will go for the Phoenix, go go Citadel Cruise Missiles!

Of course people could just make ever more titans, but if we spam dreads the whole problem might be lessened.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-02-24 19:53:07 UTC
Angel HUN wrote:
You cannot field supers without support... ALREADY...


Fon Revedhort wrote:
Most people in EVE use word 'useless' as a bashful euphemism for 'no longer overpowered'.

I, for one, don't see how making supers rely on proper support and screening can be considered as a nerf. It's a boost, as it clearly results in making them much more interesting in terms of gameplay.

Also, sure, they are to be easily killable and vulnerable. That's the whole point. Extra power should always result in extra vulnerability. This principle works just fine for battleships and dreads. The same should be applied to carriers and supers, while atm it's not.



This is the current state of Super use.


The problem becomes when you think "35 more titans" is what anyone means by "support"
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#39 - 2012-02-24 19:57:00 UTC
Feligast wrote:
The problem becomes when you think "35 more titans" is what anyone means by "support"

Well, I would imagine support would be supercarriers with fighters?

Uh, what am I saying, titans are like 4x more expensive than supercarriers they should be far better because their cost balances them. Silly goon me ! Titans should get big rep bonuses as well as be able to use remote reps and fighters.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-02-24 20:01:24 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Feligast wrote:
The problem becomes when you think "35 more titans" is what anyone means by "support"

Well, I would imagine support would be supercarriers with fighters?

Uh, what am I saying, titans are like 4x more expensive than supercarriers they should be far better because their cost balances them. Silly goon me ! Titans should get big rep bonuses as well as be able to use remote reps and fighters.


They should also be dockable and automatically get integrated armor reps because owners paid a lot of botted isk for them and it's not fair to ever nerf them :ohdear: