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CCP Tallest would love you forever if....

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2012-02-24 17:04:25 UTC
So what 1of9 is trying to say is that the way things are today is just fine, with wars that are fun, challenging and last more than 2 weeks, and certainly doesn't break down into grinding structures for 2 months afterwards.

I guess we'll just carry on, then. Nothing to change here at all.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Doris Dents
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2012-02-24 17:06:52 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
So what 1of9 is trying to say is that the way things are today is just fine, with wars that are fun, challenging and last more than 2 weeks, and certainly doesn't break down into grinding structures for 2 months afterwards.

I guess we'll just carry on, then. Nothing to change here at all.

To be fair it's pretty fun for the 50 or so guys that decide a battle involving thousands before a shot is even fired
conqueror2006
Eternal Silence Ltd.
#203 - 2012-02-24 17:21:23 UTC
CCP need to see all players as players and not some more than others.


WE that ARE NOT GOONS PAY ALSO THE BILLS ALL MONTH

So all the NERFS NEED TO BE THINK, and not only to make some desires of SOME KIDS.


CCP is MORE THEN TIME TO, RESPECT ALL THE PLAYERS.


EVERY DAY, CCP IS IN RISK TO HAVE LESS PLAYERS, SPECIAL THE OLD ONES THAT HAVE A LOT OF ACCOUNTS.


OPEN YOUR EYES CCP and use your brain.
The reclaiming
Doomheim
#204 - 2012-02-24 17:25:29 UTC
Doris Dents wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
So what 1of9 is trying to say is that the way things are today is just fine, with wars that are fun, challenging and last more than 2 weeks, and certainly doesn't break down into grinding structures for 2 months afterwards.

I guess we'll just carry on, then. Nothing to change here at all.


To be fair it's pretty fun for the 50 or so guys that decide a battle involving thousands before a shot is even fired


By 50 I think you mean the one or two FCs who can't adapt and call the same fleet type, again.
Nao Oikawasan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#205 - 2012-02-24 17:27:15 UTC
Ra Death wrote:
You know what annoys me about this whole debate? The complete lack of understanding for game mechanics that the titan nerfers call out.

Currently the most popular doctrin for goons is Maelstroms fitted with 1200mm artillery guns, fit with shield buffers, engaging at a comparative short range. It's pretty much a cookie cutter setup. These fleets are supported by massive amounts of drakes, also fit with shield buffers, both supported by an insane amount of scimitars and random recons and command ships for bonuses. Scorpions are generally thrown in to provide some EWAR support. Bombers have also been introduced in the last few weeks.

So you have battleships with a large sig, fitting shield extenders (increasing their sig even further), using long-range guns but engaging at short range (because it makes no difference and it's much more versatile due to webbing/painting huginns and alpha). You have them supported by battlecruisers (fairly big in size), also fit with shield extenders that increase their sig used in the hundreds.

How is it unfair that titans, when they sacrifice around 15 million EHP to be able to track (if not more), can hit these battleships? I don't think it's unfair at all. It's lazy on the part of the subcap fleets because they want to be able to follow 2 fleet doctrins and steamroll over everything else.

Let's look at PL and in extention -A- and Gypsy band + SOLAR. They use many different doctrins that are all used to counter other doctrins that the enemies bring. Most -A-/Gypsy use tengus these days for fleets and SOLAR have an AHAC and Maelstrom fleet running. These are strong setups that all complement each other. When PL were stupid enough the other day and lose two supercaps, what happened in this fight? They sat for around an hour while being held down by Tengus, not because they were bubbled, but because they had to stay to not leave anyone behind. -A- and friends managed to kill 2 supercarriers and a carrier while making the PL titans only able to kill a few ships (I'm guessing they were caught at 0 transversal or not moving at all). PL had no support fleet. My point is this: the smart fielding of proper ships basically kept the PL super fleet sitting with thumbs up their asses because they couldn't hit ****. PL could have jumped out at any point in the fight, sure... but they would have risked leaving a super or two behind to get destroyed because... there is always some idiot not jumping.

If you stop resorting to cookie cutter setups that you use in EVERY SINGLE SCENARIO and instead expand your playbook, titans are no longer a problem. Kill the titans' support fleet and you can bring in your own capitals to finish off the supercap fleet. Yes, it will cost you supers as well... that's how the game works.

Titans work well right now because everyone and their mother fits their Maelstroms with shield extenders and decides to go in close range. Crazy idea... try going in at long range and adapting instead of whining about how things aren't working out for you. Titans lose their effectiveness at around 150km and they won't go off field in large lag situations because there is always someone who isn't aligned or isn't jumping and you lose a supercap that way.

-A- are doing it right, they are adapting and learning. Gypsy are doing it right, they are adapting and beating PL in their own game. SOLAR are working because they field fleet combos that work well together and aren't basically the same setup only with missiles on one side and guns on the other. PL are adapting and learning, pushing out new fleet doctrins on a regular basis Goons AREN'T adapting and are screaming murder because of it. Goons are following the same plan they've done for the last year and when people pay 100 billion isk for a ship that can hit their closerange battleships, they scream that it's overpowered. Give me a break...

If you don't want to get tracked by titans, try not fielding battleships fit with shield extenders that increase your sig while going in at short range. Titans are fine with the current state of EVE, a hotfix would only make fleet fights even more unbalanced, it's the whole game that needs a rebalancing and a refocus. Bombers are a good solution to a lot of problems, but they get blapped easily and after the 3rd run, you lose your critical bomb mass to pop fleets with a bomb volley. We need a lot of things to change to fix the problems EVE has, not just a tracking nerf.


The problem here is that all of the things you call out here as problems with the way that Goons field their fleets are commonly referred to as "TACTICS". The all titans all the time doctrine isn't even used to fight with. It is only used to STOP fights. Typically when your side is loosing.

If you want a ship that is immune from all EWAR, then you should not be able to fit any modules that affect those properties. Tracking, sensors, etc.

I see you babbling about -A- adapting and all. Do you have any references that actually show PL dropping 30, 60, 100+ titans on the field and -A- winning the battle?

It's not about the money spent in game. Goons come to the fight with thousands of real players. The "titan heavy" alliances come to the fight with two or three epic multi-boxers. Now which one of these gaming styles to you think provide more real world subscriptions to support our game? We already know which style provides the most fun for the players.

If you want a real visual reference to the "titan heavy" gamers, please view the Southpark episode "Make Love, not Warcraft" Season 10 Episode 8. I think you can find it on southpark studios website.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#206 - 2012-02-24 17:27:29 UTC
1Of9 wrote:
The mitanus troops are in force in here, clearly this is just something else CCP is doing to help them.

Goons where NEVER a clear bunch, they always used threadnaughs like this to bend ccp to they will, and now with mitanus on the CSM chair, things do NOT look any better.

CCP: Plz look beyond the goons post, the "funny" they use to post with, because that is theyr main weapon
"look guys, we'r chill, we'r cool, and we want this s*** nerfed!"

Use your brains for once, and look how crap titans can track.
A titan to be able to track *something* needs to cut resists down to a single damage controller, using only tracking enhancers and tracking computers.

I consider that fair, because that "brick wall" is not just a "glass cannon".

Any blaping titan pilot knows that 1 single hostile Scarrier or a incoming DDD would be extremely extremely dangerous to him.

But God forbid goons from ever fitting a brain in those empty skulls, and actually fit something a little bit bigger than drakes and actually attack titans.

But instead, they just fall-back to the mechanics that works over and over: threadnaughs, pressure from mitanus in the csm and alot of cry in here.

Will be funny to see ccp backpedaling when they lost another massive chunk of subscribers, because dont kid yourself, each titan have a pilot, each pilot have multiple alts (usually 4 or more).

do the math.

GJ goons, another victory for the threadnaugh scheme, and another blow to the general game you hate so much.


holy ****

grath you need to hook your guys up with your spell checker
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#207 - 2012-02-24 17:29:45 UTC
conqueror2006 wrote:
CCP need to see all players as players and not some more than others.


WE that ARE NOT GOONS PAY ALSO THE BILLS ALL MONTH

So all the NERFS NEED TO BE THINK, and not only to make some desires of SOME KIDS.


CCP is MORE THEN TIME TO, RESPECT ALL THE PLAYERS.


EVERY DAY, CCP IS IN RISK TO HAVE LESS PLAYERS, SPECIAL THE OLD ONES THAT HAVE A LOT OF ACCOUNTS.


OPEN YOUR EYES CCP and use your brain.



So I take it you agree that the 300 or so people that have a titan should not wipe out the other tens of thousands then.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#208 - 2012-02-24 17:33:26 UTC
conqueror2006 wrote:
CCP need to see all players as players and not some more than others.


WE that ARE NOT GOONS PAY ALSO THE BILLS ALL MONTH

So all the NERFS NEED TO BE THINK, and not only to make some desires of SOME KIDS.


CCP is MORE THEN TIME TO, RESPECT ALL THE PLAYERS.


EVERY DAY, CCP IS IN RISK TO HAVE LESS PLAYERS, SPECIAL THE OLD ONES THAT HAVE A LOT OF ACCOUNTS.


OPEN YOUR EYES CCP and use your brain.



fyi

"voting with my wallet" is not a valid argument

two reasons

one, no one is actually gonna quit, mmos are too addicting

B, assuming that action or inaction will cause people to somehow quit, the people who want titan tracking nerfed way the hell outnumber the people who don't, so if ccp was stupid enough to actually believe this argument they would nerf titan tracking tomorrow to prevent the much larger number of subscriptions from voting with their wallets over the much, much fewer that do
conqueror2006
Eternal Silence Ltd.
#209 - 2012-02-24 17:35:03 UTC
" Goons come to the fight with thousands of real players. The "titan heavy" "


I finally found how can GOONS have so many drakes -> They had reprocess all the titans that they had. Lol

Don´t joke with me!!!!! .... You have SCARE TO USE THEN, because you without numbers, without alts, YOU ARE NOTHING.

That´s your problem.

You need CCP help to win something, like you had make to Isotopes, some post explaining how to gang in high-sec, etc...

THIS IS A FAIR GAME, OF COURSE NOT. Learn how to play a game, without **** and without no internal intel.

When that day arrive, I will have respect with your comments
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#210 - 2012-02-24 17:37:40 UTC
conqueror2006 wrote:
" Goons come to the fight with thousands of real players. The "titan heavy" "


I finally found how can GOONS have so many drakes -> They had reprocess all the titans that they had. Lol

Don´t joke with me!!!!! .... You have SCARE TO USE THEN, because you without numbers, without alts, YOU ARE NOTHING.

That´s your problem.

You need CCP help to win something, like you had make to Isotopes, some post explaining how to gang in high-sec, etc...

THIS IS A FAIR GAME, OF COURSE NOT. Learn how to play a game, without **** and without no internal intel.

When that day arrive, I will have respect with your comments

can someone translate this neaderthrashing
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#211 - 2012-02-24 17:41:58 UTC
conqueror2006 wrote:

You need CCP help to win something, like you had make to Isotopes, some post explaining how to gang in high-sec, etc...

whatnow

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#212 - 2012-02-24 17:42:21 UTC
are you accusing us of using ccp internal info to come up with the ice interdiction

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Ra Death
Samsara Exploration and Trade
#213 - 2012-02-24 17:43:45 UTC
Nao Oikawasan wrote:


The problem here is that all of the things you call out here as problems with the way that Goons field their fleets are commonly referred to as "TACTICS". The all titans all the time doctrine isn't even used to fight with. It is only used to STOP fights. Typically when your side is loosing.

If you want a ship that is immune from all EWAR, then you should not be able to fit any modules that affect those properties. Tracking, sensors, etc.

I see you babbling about -A- adapting and all. Do you have any references that actually show PL dropping 30, 60, 100+ titans on the field and -A- winning the battle?

It's not about the money spent in game. Goons come to the fight with thousands of real players. The "titan heavy" alliances come to the fight with two or three epic multi-boxers. Now which one of these gaming styles to you think provide more real world subscriptions to support our game? We already know which style provides the most fun for the players.

If you want a real visual reference to the "titan heavy" gamers, please view the Southpark episode "Make Love, not Warcraft" Season 10 Episode 8. I think you can find it on southpark studios website.


I'm sorry, but you fail to see my point. If goons and co keep throwing their head against the wall with ships that can get tracked by titans, perhaps they should adapt and switch to other doctrins. That is what -A- and the southern coalitions have done and it is working for them. It was not 4 days ago, the same fight i referenced in my original post, where PL dropped their entire supercap fleet in order to save a supercarrier. It was too late, so they lost the Hel, but they still sat around with no recourse for an hour. They even had to setup a bubble in the middle of their fleet to avoid losing more supercaps to disconnects. So yes, this is a reference to an actual -A- win. If Rusrus had committed their full capital fleets and perhaps batphoned other alliances that hate PL, they would have gotten a lot of PL supercapital kills. No doubt about it. PL only got out because -A- and friends decided to withdraw.

The money argument is also silly. If you want to design a game around how to get the most subscribers, I think you are in the wrong business. I want a game where there is incentive for old players to stay and play with their big toys that they have played a lot to receive and chance for new players to make a difference. There is this chance at the moment for that, but not if the new players never try to adapt but just continue banging their head against the wall.

If you want to win in the sandbox, you should come up with something original and not just build the same old muddy thing over and over.

Titan tracking nerf will solve the problem goons are facing, it will not solve the problem that EVE is facing.
Nao Oikawasan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-02-24 17:46:17 UTC
To all of those threatening to leave the game. Please do.

I, for one, would like to show you just how little your loss in New Eden will affect the rest of us.

I remember thousands threatening to leave over this NERF and that NERF over the years, but after a thousand NERFs, I remember that which matters most.

WE ARE STILL HERE! WE ARE NEW EDEN, AND WE ARE NOT AFRAID! Pirate

Eve is improving. I'm happier about it now than I've been in years. The new efforts by the development team will definitely pay off for our community and the company.

Now log out, call mommy to come empty your bedpan, and while she's at it tell her you need some moneys for WOW.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2012-02-24 17:46:22 UTC
Ra Death wrote:
[
I'm sorry, but you fail to see my point. If goons and co keep throwing their head against the wall with ships that can get tracked by titans, perhaps they should adapt and switch to other doctrins.

Titans track everything in a large blob. Everything.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#216 - 2012-02-24 17:47:33 UTC
I would paste the countless rifters killed by titans but that would require dealing with our killboard

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
conqueror2006
Eternal Silence Ltd.
#217 - 2012-02-24 17:49:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
are you accusing us of using ccp internal info to come up with the ice interdiction



me no

Your boss yes



Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
We're going to wreck the entire EVE economy
conqueror2006
Eternal Silence Ltd.
#218 - 2012-02-24 17:50:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Ra Death wrote:
[
I'm sorry, but you fail to see my point. If goons and co keep throwing their head against the wall with ships that can get tracked by titans, perhaps they should adapt and switch to other doctrins.

Titans track everything in a large blob. Everything.



Have you one titan ??? For sure you don´t have...................... or you don´t use it............
Ra Death
Samsara Exploration and Trade
#219 - 2012-02-24 17:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ra Death
Weaselior wrote:
I would paste the countless rifters killed by titans but that would require dealing with our killboard


Yes, if you mwd straight toward a titan, you will lose a rifter, like it should be. But the ENTIRE situation that -A-/Gypsy had the other day with their tengus, who have bigger sigs than rifters minds you, shows that there are ways around dealing with titans and people are starting to learn and adapt.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#220 - 2012-02-24 17:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ra Death wrote:


I'm sorry, but you fail to see my point. If goons and co keep throwing their head against the wall with ships that can get tracked by titans, perhaps they should adapt and switch to other doctrins. That is what -A- and the southern coalitions have done and it is working for them. It was not 4 days ago, the same fight i referenced in my original post, where PL dropped their entire supercap fleet in order to save a supercarrier. It was too late, so they lost the Hel, but they still sat around with no recourse for an hour. They even had to setup a bubble in the middle of their fleet to avoid losing more supercaps to disconnects. So yes, this is a reference to an actual -A- win. If Rusrus had committed their full capital fleets and perhaps batphoned other alliances that hate PL, they would have gotten a lot of PL supercapital kills. No doubt about it. PL only got out because -A- and friends decided to withdraw.

The money argument is also silly. If you want to design a game around how to get the most subscribers, I think you are in the wrong business. I want a game where there is incentive for old players to stay and play with their big toys that they have played a lot to receive and chance for new players to make a difference. There is this chance at the moment for that, but not if the new players never try to adapt but just continue banging their head against the wall.

If you want to win in the sandbox, you should come up with something original and not just build the same old muddy thing over and over.

Titan tracking nerf will solve the problem goons are facing, it will not solve the problem that EVE is facing.


Ah yes, you mean the fight in which PL made every mistake going, jumped in a titan fleet with no sub cap support into a AAA subcap fleet that outnumbered them 4 to one. The fight which AAA had to abandon because they still could not beat the titans dispite their hero dictors getting the entire titan fleet bubbled and their FCs doing a fantastic job of keeping their fleet alive.

The only reason the two supers died was because they were shield tanked and managed to leroy. AAA won the isk war no doubt, but they did not win the fight, they were forced to leave because they could not do anything more and every moment more they waited ment the chances of enemy subcaps or even more supers arriving.