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Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics

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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#41 - 2012-02-24 15:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

And yes, tech moons are also an issue


Tech moons do not produce ISK. They produce Technetium. Which is then traded for ISK that already exists in the game. Go back to Economics 101 for failing to understand that not a single asteroid, drone loot drop or moon material has ever added one single ISK to the game economy.

Material faucets/sinks are entirely different from ISK faucets/sinks. While a technetium moon may provide wealth to the owner, it does not create ISK. It merely creates a means to transfer ISK from the people who need technetium and already have ISK to pay for it, to the owner of the moon.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#42 - 2012-02-24 15:11:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, it's pretty darn huge. At least 30× larger than missions on a per-character basis, and third-largest faucet overall in the game, in spite of being used by only a very small number of people.


Again I say the per charecter slot metric is not a good way of assesing the system as a whole per slot/per slot available gives a better overall view of it's entire effect.

A top score table means little without magnitudes


1. 100 Trillion isk
2. 10 Trillion isk
3. 0.01 isk

see


Tippia wrote:

…except that both theory and observation says that there is indeed inflation — about 13% a year, to be exact.


A drop in the ocean when you consider the rise in earnings possible not only from incursions but, WH, PI.

3 years ago 1 billion was a major undertaking and might take over a year (probably longer for a high secer) for a new charecter, I reckon it's possible within 3 months now (and thats just doing PI), so a 13% rise in the cost of living is relativley insignificant.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2012-02-24 15:16:19 UTC
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
actually op is right that there is limit how much incursions can create isk and i suppose that's only minor fraction of all isk generated.
It's about ⅙ — quite a large fraction…

Professor Alphane wrote:
A top score table means little without magnitudes

1. 100 Trillion isk
2. 10 Trillion isk
3. 0.01 isk

see
Yes, well… It's 900 billion, 350 billion and 300 billion. So yes, it's pretty darn huge, especially considering how few are using it and how much ISK it still generates.

Quote:
A drop in the ocean when you consider the rise in earnings possible not only from incursions but, WH, PI.
Yes, that is the problem that needs to be addressed, and no, it is not a drop in the ocean. Incursions is by far the largest individual earner, and it is a key contributor to the significant inflation going on. Oh, and no, PI is not part of that ISK influx.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#44 - 2012-02-24 15:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Professor Alphane wrote:
a 13% rise in the cost of living is relativley insignificant.


Yet another person who fails to understand the exponential function.

13% inflation means that prices double every 5.5 years. That means that your billion isk freighter today will cost over 4 billion ISK in 2023, assuming EVE is still around by then. Conversely this means that in 5 years all the ISK in your wallet will buy you only half of what you can buy today. In 11 years, a billion ISK that would buy you a capital ship would be barely enough to buy and fit a battleship. 13% is an incredibly high annual growth rate for anything.

But don't worry, you're not the first person to underestimate exponential functions.

"The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest" -- Einstein
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#45 - 2012-02-24 15:29:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
actually op is right that there is limit how much incursions can create isk and i suppose that's only minor fraction of all isk generated.
It's about ⅙ — quite a large fraction…

Professor Alphane wrote:
A top score table means little without magnitudes

1. 100 Trillion isk
2. 10 Trillion isk
3. 0.01 isk

see
Yes, well… It's 900 billion, 350 billion and 300 billion. So yes, it's pretty darn huge, especially considering how few are using it and how much ISK it still generates.

Quote:
A drop in the ocean when you consider the rise in earnings possible not only from incursions but, WH, PI.
Yes, that is the problem that needs to be addressed, and no, it is not a drop in the ocean. Incursions is by far the largest individual earner, and it is a key contributor to the significant inflation going on. Oh, and no, PI is not part of that ISK influx.



What are the other too items on the high score table if you don't mind me asking. And what length of time does that metric represent.

Also my final point was inflation was somewhat insignificant, not Incursion isk earnings.

Thanks though you the first person to come up with actual figures to discuss, which was all I wanted people to realise really is ISK/HR/Person doesn't tell the story of it's overall effect on the economy as you need to know on what scale this activitie goes on comparitive to others.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2012-02-24 15:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Professor Alphane wrote:
What are the other too items on the high score table if you don't mind me asking. And what length of time does that metric represent.
Bounties and NPC buy orders. Those are the numbers per day.

Quote:
Also my final point was inflation was somewhat insignificant, not Incursion isk earnings.
But that's just it: it is not insignificant, and it is caused by the increased earnings potential — a potential that either needs to be hemmed in (and which does not include PI) or needs to be matched by an equal supply of materials. In other words, the earning needs to be riskier and result in more lost stuff, or needs to be dialled down.

Btw, if you want more numbers to play with, I've collected data that CCP Diagoras has been tweeting here, and written a follow-up post providing some limited interpretation of those numbers.
Az'Kagoth
War Crime Syndicate
#47 - 2012-02-24 15:48:09 UTC
Thought it was a troll first, but the devotion shown by the OP to spread misinformation makes me feel sorry for his own failure of understanding basic economical principles.

Mr. Alphane, throughout this topic, there are several posts, already from the first page, that empirically present theories and thesises that are in conflict with the ones you presented in the OP without empirical proof. You however have been behaving like an angry little child holding his ears shut and screaming, by dismissing those arguments by calling them "off-topic", "insignificant" and accused them of not containing enough statistics instead of actually reading them.

A quick look into the Market Discussion forums might've been useful before shitting up General...
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#48 - 2012-02-24 16:03:36 UTC
Thanks Tippia I'll have a look at those figures when I get the chance, see if I can get a better idea of what's going on.

Bear in mind though all you incursion bashers, Incursion are CCP's flagship PvE content now, 'Space raids' basically, remeber these activities are phenominally high earning traditionally in other games.

Too much focus is on one type of incursion, that I do agree needs to be looked at, but if this is what I think it is, CCP attempt at a tiered raiding like system in EVE then it isn't a bad attempt. I would suggest them to look further into 'situational' AI , lots of succseful raid systems do a little more than just the standard 'lock horns Tank vs Dps'.

Further thoughts on the subject make me think Agro mechanics are somewhat limited, which reminds me of another thing someone said to me 'ECM is broken' perhaps if CCP do intend to pursue the 'space raid' path, an interesting adaptation may be to make ECM your aggro mechanic, have ECM funtion the reverse of what it is now. You send a counter wave up the signal that in someway scrambles every other lock except the signal it travelled up for a limited time, Allowing tanks to Force Aggro a target if neccasery.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#49 - 2012-02-24 16:10:38 UTC
Az'Kagoth wrote:
Thought it was a troll first, but the devotion shown by the OP to spread misinformation makes me feel sorry for his own failure of understanding basic economical principles.

Mr. Alphane, throughout this topic, there are several posts, already from the first page, that empirically present theories and thesises that are in conflict with the ones you presented in the OP without empirical proof. You however have been behaving like an angry little child holding his ears shut and screaming, by dismissing those arguments by calling them "off-topic", "insignificant" and accused them of not containing enough statistics instead of actually reading them.

A quick look into the Market Discussion forums might've been useful before shitting up General...




Again thanks for the charecter analysis and advice, I am going to respectfully ignore them though.

On the basis as far as I'm concerned a lot of this thread has been guddiscusion.

To summarise I presented a theory to test an assumption.

I now thanks to Tippia hopefully have the evidence to asses this.

If it turns out that my assertions are wrong fair enough, it doesn't change the fact that there was a flaw in the assumption and further data was needed to properly asses the situation.

That how I see it anyhow

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
wallstreetwhiz
Jita Traders Society
#50 - 2012-02-24 17:21:08 UTC
Tore Vest wrote:
Nerf Jita traders


Jita Traders Society opposes any nerfing of Jita Trade.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2012-02-25 13:38:19 UTC
Please keep discussions about Incursions in this thread, thank you.

Discussions about inflation, or the lack of, belong to Market Discussion forum.

Thread locked.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
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