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[Amarr] Weapon Systems Problems
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OfBalance
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-02-24 02:27:06 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Doctor Mabuse wrote:
Looks like we've come full circle. 2006 would like it's whine back.


Holy ****.


I want to believe.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#22 - 2012-02-24 04:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Karak Bol wrote:
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
I'm not saying that I agree with the OP that lasers are broken (I don't), but your logic is ********. Lasers, which use cap, get a cap bonus so they can fire longer then projectiles that don't use cap? WTF?


Ever ran out of ammunition in a Laser armed ship?



On several occasions, and let me tell you, every one was a disaster.



Jack Miton wrote:
anyone claiming amarr ships are underpowered clearly doesnt PVP.
they have by FAR the best battleships, the best command ships, the best carrier, top of the line dread, great recons, excellent HACs and the only semi decent black ops.


Best command ships? Big smile

Panther > sin = widow = redeemer

Jack Miton wrote:

for the cheaper tastes, punisher, arbitrator, harbinger, oracle are all excellent ships.


Punisher is crap. You heard it here first, kids!

It's EHP advantage isn't worth much when you take it's other stats into account. I dare say any of the other highest tier tech 1 frigates can do any job better than it.


Jack Miton wrote:

as for lasers, the only down side to them is that you can only do em/therm damage.
this is a perfectly fine trade off for being awesome tho.



Well, there is the whole uses-cap-are-hard-to-fit-and-don't-track-for-****-when-target-is-close thing.
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-02-24 04:42:42 UTC
Quote:
Posting in a nerf mimatar(and gallente){and caldari} thread.


:faceplam: I didn't want it... It's all their fault!

Indeed this is not nerf mimatar thread. I just used their BC as examples.

__________________


Quote:
I'm not saying that I agree with the OP that lasers are broken (I don't).


I do not whine either just point out things. The weapon system in overall has no qualities to be trained for unless you plan doing some siege stuff to cut on your ammo costs.

And that is not good gameplay wise.

Also I do not imply that the problem is solely with the lasers:

Quote:
Maybe the problem here is not in the lasers rather than hulls and their bonuses. Legion definitely lacks 7th low slot and Harby has to scale down its weapons.


__________________


Korg Tronix wrote:
Tbf if we are being really picky about max dps a 3 heat sink HPL Binger does 930dps with HH IIs, conflag and heat. Why you would load that ammo is something else especially with the 26km scorch range you get.

If we really are talking DPS numbers if your Harbinger is being outdps'd by a Cyclone you need better skills


Jesus Christ, learn to read:

Quote:
MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15+km :)

We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance.



__________________



No one has anything to say about Missiles?
FlameGlow
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-02-24 05:59:42 UTC
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:

But what we have in-game are ships that can't fit proper weapons+mwd+tank.

Yes, the caldari gunships for exampleEvil
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-02-24 06:04:21 UTC
FlameGlow wrote:
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:

But what we have in-game are ships that can't fit proper weapons+mwd+tank.

Yes, the caldari gunships for exampleEvil


Talking about Ferox and Moa? Funny how Caldari and Amarr have problematic ships in the same class and tier and that those ships have the similar bonuses :)

Well that's another issue not connected to this thread.
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#26 - 2012-02-24 07:33:17 UTC
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:

Korg Tronix wrote:
Tbf if we are being really picky about max dps a 3 heat sink HPL Binger does 930dps with HH IIs, conflag and heat. Why you would load that ammo is something else especially with the 26km scorch range you get.

If we really are talking DPS numbers if your Harbinger is being outdps'd by a Cyclone you need better skills


Jesus Christ, learn to read:

Quote:
MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15+km :)

We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance.





Ok I was just correcting a person earliers obvious attempt at efting the damage difference between the two ships, I used a standard shield Binger by the way.

[Harbinger, Standard Armour]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
50W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5

The above fit is a fairly standard armour harb fit and it outdps' basically every cyclone fit, the only cyclone that comes close is the shield buffer fit but then they are all outdps' by the shield harb. If a Cyclone is at 15km load scorch and be happy.

As for the dps difference with the Hurricane, its very close when they are at point blank with the cane taking it I believe but outside of 5km (not sure on this) you should have the better of it on the damage curve. If we are comparing shield cane to shield binger though you produce better dps inside point range due to scorch again (he still has two neuts and is faster but hey).


As for the Amarr missile boats, they are all fairly good but above the Vengeance suffer from the 'Drake is as good at this job and costs alot less' and therefore people say the Sac is crap. HAM Sac has a smaller tank and dps than a HAM Drake but costs 3x as much, so why use it? The HAM Legion is still great as it has a massive tank and if 100mn fit has a great way of leaving fights.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Jaketh Ivanes
Rigorous Rivals
#27 - 2012-02-24 09:02:44 UTC
I agree that AC do have issues along with lasers. I've made a comparison based on the Maller (the best example of why AC's are better on Amarr ships than lasers).
[Maller, TestSetup - AC DPS]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
AGM Capacitor Charge Array

425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M Range 1.5+12, Tracking 0.132, RoF 3.09662
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

DPS is 268 with 831 volly. Cap stable at 38%, 17346 EHP, 0.25 CPU and 199 grid spare, with all 5.

[Maller, TestSetup - HP DPS]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Range 7.5+5, Tracking 0.10156, RoF 2.89018
[empty high slot]


DPS 299, volly 863, cap stable at 37%, 17346 ehp, 1.75 cpu and 24.5 grid spare, with all 5.

This show the issue very well. Lasers should still be the preferred weapon of choice on the Maller and not unbonused AC's. In my oppinion, a hull should "fix" a weapon so they are viable. Laser cap reduction on Amarr is a good example of a "fixing" bonus. Tracking or RoF could be a good fix for projectile weapons.

Yes they are **** fits but show the issue.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#28 - 2012-02-24 18:01:25 UTC
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
2) "Useless bonus". The -10% capacitor bonus is present on almost every amarr hull but it doesn't contribute to the damage output of the weapon or the ship's traits. It gets even worse if the ship has no Laser damage bonus. Talk about "Maller" and "Prophecy" which are among the most gimped in the game.


Looks at the bright side: You can use projectile weapons on these ships without "wasting" a laser damage/range/tracking bonus.


Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#29 - 2012-02-24 18:05:38 UTC
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Harby has to scale down its weapons
The problem isn't that the Harbinger has to fit smaller guns in order to fit a MWD, tank and utility. The problem is that other tier-2 BCs don't have to make the same fitting choices.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
A'Brantox Foson
A'Brantox Foson Corporation
#30 - 2012-02-24 18:10:32 UTC
tl;dr last half, but amarr are all about the awesome endgame ships. You got, baddons, geddons, apocs, redeemer, avatar, legion (and rev... WH infintie ammo, legion pwns incs) , aeon, archon, guardian, curse (all recons are OP, but so is amarr, woohoo)

Minmatar do pwn at solo small stuff admitadly.

No worries.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#31 - 2012-02-24 20:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
My god... the QQ in here is amazing.

To the OP:

Every weapon system has its advantages and disadvantages. In the case of lasers you get...

- "long" optimal ranges for a "short range" weapon (means you can apply more of your DPS more consistently over a larger area than other weapon systems)... this makes lasers ideal for medium range brawls.
- medium level base damage
- T1 crystals never run out
- ammo (and thus range) can be changed instantly
- Faction and T2 crystals are cheaper per-shot than any other ammo
- ammo crystals are stupid easy to manufacture, move, and store in large amounts... both for yourself or for fleets

... at the cost of...

- lasers cannot track well at point blank range... which is intentional as this is blaster-projectile territory. Lasers are designed to kill at range... not when people are swarming up your butthole.
- lasers consume a lot of capacitor... which is largely seen as the biggest trade-off for all the advantages that lasers can give.
- lasers are stuck doing only EM and Thermal damage... but then again many other ships are stuck doing certain damage types as well. Only the Minmitar have the ability to truly chose the ammo's damage type (yes, the Caldari don't get this title because many of their ships only get bonuses for Kinetic missiles... so they CAN chose a damage type, they just won't get bonuses for it).


With regards to Amarrian ships...

- they are not fast. Nor are they meant to be. The same way Caldari ships were "designed" for ranged combat, Gallente were "designed" for close quarters combat, the way that Minmitar were "designed" to be the skirmish/wildcard... Amarr ships are "designed" to be the proverbial "soldier." Hit hard, tank hard, and keep on trucking.
However, as with everything you CAN customize your ship to do something completely different from what the "intended design" was. Just be aware that you will never be able to modify your ship and perform a tactic EXACTLY the way another ship can... especially when said other ship was designed to do such a thing.

- the cap bonus is a "legacy" thing from WAY back when EVE was still young. Lasers were supposed to be the hardest hitting weapon system in the game, which meant that a damage bonus on ships wasn't necessary. The trade-off was supposed to be that lasers consume so much capacitor that it just would not be reasonable to fit them to any ship other than Amarrian ones.
Today... the mechanics and stats are completely different so I would not object to altering the bonuses of ships like the Maller and Prophecy to make them more similar to the Abaddon (i.e. hits hard, tanks hard, terribad capacitor).

How did you Veterans start?
Dremoirae
Cunning Stunt Team
#32 - 2012-02-25 02:11:46 UTC
Korg Tronix wrote:
[quote=Jeremy Ironforge]
[quote=Korg Tronix]

As for the Amarr missile boats, they are all fairly good but above the Vengeance suffer from the 'Drake is as good at this job and costs alot less' and therefore people say the Sac is crap. HAM Sac has a smaller tank and dps than a HAM Drake but costs 3x as much, so why use it? The HAM Legion is still great as it has a massive tank and if 100mn fit has a great way of leaving fights.


My God you've compared a Cruiser with Battle cruisers and Strategic Cruiser, the result will totaly different dude,
Vengeance vs drake = Fail
pick opponent with same size Evil
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#33 - 2012-02-25 02:32:23 UTC
Dremoirae wrote:
Korg Tronix wrote:
[quote=Jeremy Ironforge]
[quote=Korg Tronix]

As for the Amarr missile boats, they are all fairly good but above the Vengeance suffer from the 'Drake is as good at this job and costs alot less' and therefore people say the Sac is crap. HAM Sac has a smaller tank and dps than a HAM Drake but costs 3x as much, so why use it? The HAM Legion is still great as it has a massive tank and if 100mn fit has a great way of leaving fights.


My God you've compared a Cruiser with Battle cruisers and Strategic Cruiser, the result will totaly different dude,
Vengeance vs drake = Fail
pick opponent with same size Evil


Im not sure but do you actually play EvE. I didn't compare the vengeance to the drake. Although I did compare a HAC to a t2 BC as that is a fair comparison. It is completely reasonable to say that the SAC is overshadowed in its role by the Drake, when HAM fitted they are similar except the Drake is better in p. much every department, so why buy a Sac when you can get everything the sac does in a Drake for less.

To a certain extent this would be true of a HAM Legion except it gets better stats than the Drake so its at least worth it.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#34 - 2012-02-25 03:03:27 UTC
Before the recent hybrid rebalancing, when a new player (especially coming from another MMO) would ask me what build they should make for pvp, after explaining to them that it didn't restrict their character due to cross training, I would tell them Minmatar or Amarr.

With all of the recent changes, I would say anything but caldari for starting and wanting to pvp. Lazers are a great weapon system, but they have their drawbacks. EVERY weapon system has its drawbacks. That's where the balance comes from.

As for the Amarr hulls: "they need a damage bonus" - they have armor resist bonuses instead which is what makes them different from just being lazor gallente light w/ missiles.

Solo Rifter since 2009
OfBalance
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-02-25 04:00:16 UTC
Ahrieman wrote:
Before the recent hybrid rebalancing, when a new player (especially coming from another MMO) would ask me what build they should make for pvp, after explaining to them that it didn't restrict their character due to cross training, I would tell them Minmatar or Amarr.

With all of the recent changes, I would say anything but caldari for starting and wanting to pvp.


In b4 the weekly caldari thread since this one has run its course. Lol
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#36 - 2012-02-25 04:10:39 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
Ahrieman wrote:
Before the recent hybrid rebalancing, when a new player (especially coming from another MMO) would ask me what build they should make for pvp, after explaining to them that it didn't restrict their character due to cross training, I would tell them Minmatar or Amarr.

With all of the recent changes, I would say anything but caldari for starting and wanting to pvp.


In b4 the weekly caldari thread since this one has run its course. Lol


I'm not advocating for a whine thread, although your foresight is 20/20, but one of the problems with Caldari for NEW players is that their main T1 frigate (the merlin) is a split weapon platform thus making it very skill intensive to use effectively. The merlin is a great frig once you have the skills, just not friendly to beginners. The T1 cruiser options are also somewhat limited, but with the hybrid changes, the Moa is a much better ship now. Unfortunately, most Caldari pilots tend to focus on missile skills (drake) and leave their gunnery skills lacking.

The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships. The Caldari destroyer prob also gets the short end of the stick in that ship class. It's not that the Caldari are bad, but T1 frig, dessie, T1 cruiser, and BC are the beginner friendly ships.

Merlin: Hybrids and missiles
Cormorant: Hybrids (also lacking in it's class)
Moa: Hybrids
Drake: Missiles

To be proficient with all 4 of these ships provided by the Caldari is very skill intensive.

Solo Rifter since 2009
OfBalance
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-02-25 04:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Bummer, guess I have to make the trol... I mean, whine thread later.

Better get a few more shots in first.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#38 - 2012-02-25 12:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Exploited Engineer
Ahrieman wrote:
The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships.


Don't forget that Caldari pilots also need to train drone skills to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their ships, with the sole exception of Tengu-only (and maybe frigate/AF-only) pilots.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-02-26 09:13:17 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Ahrieman wrote:
The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships.


Don't forget that Caldari pilots also need to train drone skills to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their ships, with the sole exception of Tengu-only (and maybe frigate/AF-only) pilots.


Well this is the case for all races, nothing special about caldari
Alara IonStorm
#40 - 2012-02-26 09:46:55 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Ahrieman wrote:
The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships.


Don't forget that Caldari pilots also need to train drone skills to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their ships, with the sole exception of Tengu-only (and maybe frigate/AF-only) pilots.

They are pretty much spared the train for Heavies / Sentries which are two separate Rank 5 skills the same as any other Large Weapon System and needs to be brought to 5 to get the T2 Spec which makes them worth it.

The only Caldari Ship not counting Guristas that can mount a full Flight is the Chimera Capital Ship. Everything else has a 75m3 and below bay. So unless you are training Chimera that is 2 Skills the equivalent of Large Hybrid and Cruise Missiles you do not need to train.

I would say they are not hit nearly as hard in Drones unless you are going Carrier.
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