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[PROPOSAL] Make Overview filters separate XML files which can be loaded, distributed, etc
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Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#1 - 2012-02-16 11:47:53 UTC
I've thought for a long time that it would be great to have individual filters xml loadable. For example, have a directory into which [name].xml files could be dropped, and they appear in your "Load overview settings" list. Optionally these files could contain column info, bracket settings and/or tab name. Such files could easiliy be distributed, and used without screwing up all your existing tabs.

The file/directory paradigm is well understood, and would be far easier to understand than the existing arcane way of doing things. Once they were aware of the directory (visible when a setting is "saved-as"), it would be obvious to players how to add new filters, update existing filters by overwriting files, delete un-needed filters or move them to a back-up directory, etc, etc. Another win would be that all accounts on a machine would share the same set of available filters.

Even better would be to allow sub-directories, so that an extra layer of the load menu is created, allowing divisions such as PvP, Corp, or [character] acording to taste.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#2 - 2012-02-16 11:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Kimbeau Surveryor wrote:
I've thought for a long time that it would be great to have individual filters xml loadable. For example, have a directory into which [name].xml files could be dropped, and they appear in your "Load overview settings" list. Optionally these files could contain column info, bracket settings and/or tab name. Such files could easiliy be distributed, and used without screwing up all your existing tabs.

The file/directory paradigm is well understood, and would be far easier to understand than the existing arcane way of doing things. Once they were aware of the directory (visible when a setting is "saved-as"), it would be obvious to players how to add new filters, update existing filters by overwriting files, delete un-needed filters or move them to a back-up directory, etc, etc. Another win would be that all accounts on a machine would share the same set of available filters.

Even better would be to allow sub-directories, so that an extra layer of the load menu is created, allowing divisions such as PvP, Corp, or [character] acording to taste.

Already exists. Take a look at the 'Import' and 'Export' options in your overview.

Edit: Its not as granular as your proposal, but its there. The extra layers would make the 10-20 different overviews nullsec alliances want us to have a little easier to manage.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#3 - 2012-02-16 15:35:52 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Already exists. Take a look at the 'Import' and 'Export' options in your overview.

Edit: Its not as granular as your proposal, but its there. The extra layers would make the 10-20 different overviews nullsec alliances want us to have a little easier to manage.

No, that's not the same at all. The import and export take the stuff and hide it internally. I want individual filters clearly visible in the filing system. You can't even "save" a filter (as opposed to "save as...") at the moment. And when you do export or import, it's all or nothing, unless you're an xml warrior and can cut and paste bits from different exports -- which is hard: I've tried it an it wasn't fun. So much easier to drag and drop a file. (Of course, in a perfect world you should be able to drop the file from your filing system into the Eve overview window, too.)
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2012-02-16 16:02:45 UTC
Tallian is right, it already exists in the game. No, it's not exactly what you suggested, but the current system has far less overhead since it doesn't have to watch a directory on your PC constantly, it can simply keep the data in memory.

What you're probably not understanding is the overhead to a program that disc IO takes up. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it's something like 20-40x slower than reading from memory. There's a reason it's the way that it is.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#5 - 2012-02-16 16:09:37 UTC
Kimbeau Surveryor wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Already exists. Take a look at the 'Import' and 'Export' options in your overview.

Edit: Its not as granular as your proposal, but its there. The extra layers would make the 10-20 different overviews nullsec alliances want us to have a little easier to manage.

No, that's not the same at all. The import and export take the stuff and hide it internally. I want individual filters clearly visible in the filing system. You can't even "save" a filter (as opposed to "save as...") at the moment. And when you do export or import, it's all or nothing, unless you're an xml warrior and can cut and paste bits from different exports -- which is hard: I've tried it an it wasn't fun. So much easier to drag and drop a file. (Of course, in a perfect world you should be able to drop the file from your filing system into the Eve overview window, too.)

You are already proposing a perfect world solution. As stated, disc I/O for monitoring like that is insane.

Try something. Open your resource monitor, go to the disk tab, and then start a program that monitors and reads real time, and look at the performance hit you take. I run raided SSDs, and I can see the performance hit from apps like that, and even just my virus scanner(which only reads when a call is made for the file).

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#6 - 2012-02-16 16:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimbeau Surveryor
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You are already proposing a perfect world solution. As stated, disc I/O for monitoring like that is insane.

Of course. But you don't have to do that at all. You only scan the directory when you are about to open the "Load Filter Setting" menu item. If even that is too much (you might be in a hurry at the time you want to change filters) then scan the directory only at session change, startup, or when a file is dropped onto the overview.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#7 - 2012-02-16 16:46:56 UTC
Kimbeau Surveryor wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You are already proposing a perfect world solution. As stated, disc I/O for monitoring like that is insane.

Of course. But you don't have to do that at all. You only scan the directory when you are about to open the "Load Filter Setting" menu item. If even that is too much (you might be in a hurry at the time you want to change filters) then scan the directory only at session change, startup, or when a file is dropped onto the overview.

Oh just, you know, not break a system that already works?

Its fine as it is. I'm not saying there is no room for improvement, but I can think of hundreds of things in eve that don't even work, so this falls under 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

Please don't distract CCP from the things that actually need fixed, plox? Roll

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#8 - 2012-02-16 17:10:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimbeau Surveryor
Hmm. I've obviously got one guy who has a real bee in his bonnet about this suggestion. Actually, I think it is broken, in that it is yet another reason why people don't get into PvP. Your carefuly crafted mining or missioning overview gets totally messed up when you try to set up for PvP. {Edit: ...and then there's the total mystification of noobs who arrive at a tutorial site and see nothing relevent on the overview. But that's mostly a separate fix.}

Maybe I'm not typical, but I have four accounts, working on three computers, with alts... and I've never got my overviews even halfway sane. [I nearly did once, back when I just had one PC, but then I lost a hard disk...]
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#9 - 2012-02-16 17:53:22 UTC
Kimbeau Surveryor wrote:
Hmm. I've obviously got one guy who has a real bee in his bonnet about this suggestion. Actually, I think it is broken, in that it is yet another reason why people don't get into PvP. Your carefuly crafted mining or missioning overview gets totally messed up when you try to set up for PvP. {Edit: ...and then there's the total mystification of noobs who arrive at a tutorial site and see nothing relevent on the overview. But that's mostly a separate fix.}

Maybe I'm not typical, but I have four accounts, working on three computers, with alts... and I've never got my overviews even halfway sane. [I nearly did once, back when I just had one PC, but then I lost a hard disk...]

The overview system in game is admittedly confusing, however you didn't address that. Your issue was to be able to do imports in an automagical way, and the import system works just fine.

You can export, import, share, whatever you need. I have 20 different definitions because I PvP in nullsec, and there is a standard that set of overviews that CFC FCs use and expect people to have. If this is to hard for you, I'm sorry, but eve may not be for you.

I will agree that the configuration of the overview to make those xml files in the first place is one of the worst systems I have ever seen, but once again, that wasn't even really mentioned in the OP.

This simple matter is, making an autoimport function that fires any more often than at game launch(which would be annoying as hell if you wanted to import in game) is unnecessary, and puts a huge strain on alot of peoples system(especially running more than one client). In that matter(which was the stated point of your thread when you created it) you are flat wrong.

If you wanna ***** about the overview creation system, start a thread about that, or better yet post in one of the hundreds that already exist on the issue. Pointless tho, since CCP already said they are aware its an issue and its in the mile long list of fixes and improvements they already have.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#10 - 2012-02-16 18:02:26 UTC
http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=49396&sid=e2bb820fa416c5bc36733f9a359bcafc

that might help you a little in your attempts at XML manipulation. used to be a website that did it, but it died

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#11 - 2012-02-16 20:43:46 UTC
I guess the main point of my proposal is to bypass the issues of it being hard to create filters, by allowing you trivially to create your own collection from a selection of other people's work. Which is what I'd mostly like to do.

And I totally refute your mumblings about the load it puts on the computer. If you care, let's say it is only refreshed when you undock, or drop a new file into the Eve window. Then there is zero extra load in normal operation, but pilots can trigger a refresh whenever they want. (OK, special case of no-docking play styles; I guess they have to re-log if they edit rather than drop files. But they can always create a copy somewhere else with the same name and drop that to overwrite. And anyway, the existing editing mode will still be there, so no loss of functionality.)

Seems to me I'm being trolled. You're attacking a minor and irrelevent aspect of the proposal, just 'cos you personally don't like the overal idea. Lets see if we can canvass any other opinions.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#12 - 2012-02-16 21:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Kimbeau Surveryor wrote:
I guess the main point of my proposal is to bypass the issues of it being hard to create filters, by allowing you trivially to create your own collection from a selection of other people's work. Which is what I'd mostly like to do.

And I totally refute your mumblings about the load it puts on the computer. If you care, let's say it is only refreshed when you undock, or drop a new file into the Eve window. Then there is zero extra load in normal operation, but pilots can trigger a refresh whenever they want. (OK, special case of no-docking play styles; I guess they have to re-log if they edit rather than drop files. But they can always create a copy somewhere else with the same name and drop that to overwrite. And anyway, the existing editing mode will still be there, so no loss of functionality.)

Seems to me I'm being trolled. You're attacking a minor and irrelevent aspect of the proposal, just 'cos you personally don't like the overal idea. Lets see if we can canvass any other opinions.

A minor and irrelevant aspect?
re-read this:

Quote:
I've thought for a long time that it would be great to have individual filters xml loadable. For example, have a directory into which [name].xml files could be dropped, and they appear in your "Load overview settings" list. Optionally these files could contain column info, bracket settings and/or tab name. Such files could easiliy be distributed, and used without screwing up all your existing tabs.

The file/directory paradigm is well understood, and would be far easier to understand than the existing arcane way of doing things. Once they were aware of the directory (visible when a setting is "saved-as"), it would be obvious to players how to add new filters, update existing filters by overwriting files, delete un-needed filters or move them to a back-up directory, etc, etc. Another win would be that all accounts on a machine would share the same set of available filters.

Even better would be to allow sub-directories, so that an extra layer of the load menu is created, allowing divisions such as PvP, Corp, or [character] acording to taste.


That is your whole proposal dude. If you had proposed changes to the overview creation system I would have been all about it. Its borked, and no sane person can argue that.

You want to to increase system load in a game that already strains some players systems to automate a task that most people do once or twice. Ever. You can already import other peoples overviews. There are already plenty of good premade ones available for download, if you bother looking.

The ONLY part of your proposal that has any merit is a folder system to sort the various overview types into, and this can be worked around with a consistent naming system.

Stop fighting for something pointless. If you must fight for a reform to our overviews, make it something simple.

Oh, and if I was trolling you, I would have been done with it hours ago, and called you mean names. The worst I have said here is that you are wrong, and you ARE demonstrably wrong.

Suffer with a couple extra click once a year at most(unless you are foolish enough to wipe all your appdata and docs folders more often than that)until after the truly painful click fests are resolved(seriously, your complaining about this when you have PI to give you RSI?)

I'm not trying to attack you, you seem like a good guy. You just don't seem to realize what you are actually asking for.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Bent Barrel
#13 - 2012-02-16 21:37:39 UTC
the extra load is a simple fix, all existing settings are loaded at client start and a manual import function for modifications while the client is running.

I am not aware of any EXTERNAL overview editor. care to point me to one ?

anyway having separate files for each tab or filter setup would be great so one can share just parts and not need to rely on editing that can mess things up.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#14 - 2012-02-16 21:50:35 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
the extra load is a simple fix, all existing settings are loaded at client start and a manual import function for modifications while the client is running.

I am not aware of any EXTERNAL overview editor. care to point me to one ?

anyway having separate files for each tab or filter setup would be great so one can share just parts and not need to rely on editing that can mess things up.

It doesn't exist any more sadly. It used to live a balss-industries.com, but the domain got bought by a flooring company or something. I wish I had the webdev skills to replicate it, but I will have to leave that to someone with talents in that direction.

As far as loading everything at start up, dear god no. Before I crashed and lost the past 4 years of backups I had in the area of 200 different profiles in a variety of files. Loading all that at startup woulda crashed the client every time. For most people, tho, that would be the perfect balance.

And having separate files for each tab would be awesome, as long as they changed the entire system so that it read the files instead of keeping settings in cache.

Catch the ear of one of the CSM with it(I suggest a well worked out single post detailing it, and linking it in the various discussion threads the good CSM keep running, like The Mittani's ~chill place~) and this idea, fully fleshed out has a good chance of going somewhere, since CCP has said the overview is the next project in the UI, not that the neocom is updated.

If you do this, evemail me with the thread and I will come support it with you.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#15 - 2012-02-17 16:39:38 UTC
shameless bump
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-02-18 14:39:57 UTC
I have to agree with Tallian on this one. The import/export of the overview settings works fine for the vast majority of EVE players who will probably only import their corp/alliance/FC preferred overview settings once.

This ain't broken so no need to fix it.
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#17 - 2012-02-22 21:34:21 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
I have to agree with Tallian on this one. The import/export of the overview settings works fine for the vast majority of EVE players who will probably only import their corp/alliance/FC preferred overview settings once.

This ain't broken so no need to fix it.
Not sure that's true. It may be for players whose playstyle is to be part of corp action most of the time, but for people who like to dabble in different areas of the game, a "standard" setting file is rarely adequate. And if all ones careful tweaks and additions are overwritten every time your corp/alliance/FC upgrades the release version... well, it ends in tears.