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Drake changes from CSM minutes.
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Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2012-02-22 13:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ceptia Cyna
Shade Millith wrote:
Quote:
Calculate the Defense Value difference now with Purgers and specific Hardeners T1 for new players.
[...]Defence rating for kinetic with 2 T2 kin hardeners, 3 purgers, 1 LSE II, and two Shield power relay's goes from 809 DPS to 607. That's around 25% lost. Pretty hefty.


Yeah as i said with this Changes the Drake will rank as pure PVP Ship, not that it isn't the most used one allready.

Useless to the newbies due to lack of all V and the 1 billion isk for blingbling faction/deadspace and useless to the bittervets that allready fly all V Tengu/Golem.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#262 - 2012-02-22 13:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Hrett wrote:
Misanthra wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Thanks. That's what I was afraid of. That sounds like it would be used even more. Bad idea.



basically...having flown drakes this fixes one aspect of what I thought was broke on the drake, its damage ability. ROF will help that out. Loss of resists a non-factor imo. To me, this a bonus that I'd liked to see pulled on more ships to get a more useful bonus tbh.

People will jsut have to pull some cdfe for resists rigs. they get that ROF boost for thier troubles which was something you could never really fix on pvp drake. Only so many bcu you can fit on a pvp drak (and it sure as hell won't be faction variety) and rof rigs are a bit pve'ish for a pvp drake.


So you think the drake needs a 33% - 66% damage bonus? If his post is right, even a with the resist bonus removed, the common drake would still have 68k EHP. Im pretty sure that is still more than most (if not all) other BC that have that kind of range. Sorry, but this is a dumb change for the ship that is ALREADY #1 on the kill boards. Bad. Idea.

I was excited that the drake was getting changed, but this is the wrong one, IMHO.


Sorry but you clearly don't understand actually what's the strength of drakes in current fleets, it's absolutely not it's dps but the ability to tank huge amounts of punishment for long periods whilist doing dps, some but since it stays longer in the field you just have to add more friends flying drakes to make those become the nastiest crap you can fight.

Now compare this with the Brutix:

Crap range engagement, paper thin tank, slow brick just good for gate camps, but you can push 800dps from it.

The trade off from Battleship sized tank and cruiser dps (lol even thorax does more than pvp HM drake) for more regular tank (around 65K ehp) but more dps is a nice trade off.
You'll still be able to hit crap at 100km to full dmg, but at higher rate of fire and damage but around 30K less tank.
I can't wait to fit my newest HAM's drake and butt **** Cynabals all day long

EDIT: and sry guys but the noobie excuse it's a very poor excuse.

It's poor because this means drake is in need of a real big nerf or other BC huge improvements, so people have choices to fly in the race they've chosen rather than not have the choice but to train for drakes.
Alara IonStorm
#263 - 2012-02-22 14:14:20 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

You'll still be able to hit crap at 100km to full dmg, but at higher rate of fire and damage but around 30K less tank.

You can actually see the new tank numbers by removing the Battlecruiser skill bonus from EFT. Here is a common Fleet Drake Fit.

[Drake, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

90760 EHP, 79652 Lowest Resist, Therm. Resists across the board, 68.2 em, 63.8 therm, 72.8 kin, 77.4 exp.

With a Warp Disruptor II or Omni resists above 70% I can still keep the ship above 80k EHP.

I really do doubt that this change is gonna hurt the Drake all that much.
Tanya Powers wrote:

I can't wait to fit my newest HAM's drake and butt **** Cynabals all day long.

Big smile
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#264 - 2012-02-22 14:16:32 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:


Now compare this with the Brutix:

Crap range engagement, paper thin tank, slow brick just good for gate camps, but you can push 800dps from it.



Crap range- check
Paper thin tank - check
Slow brick - check
Perfect for hole and gate camps - check
800 dps? LOL

Brutix does +1100dps when you push it, mine goes to eleven!!111! (1181dps). Push the red button and melt away. Required cybernetics are cheap and help on all Gal med hybrid hulls. And as long as you are in range, those 1100dps land on target.

[Brutix, Brutix dear Brutix]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Warp Scrambler II

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5

/offtopic


Oh and nerf the draek!

.
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#265 - 2012-02-22 14:39:07 UTC
IMO, instead of making the Drake more like other missile boats, e.i. the Caracal, Kestrel, and Cerberus, which are arguably pretty gimpy ships, why not make those ships more like the Drake, which is one of the few missile spamming Caldari ships that actually work.
Alara IonStorm
#266 - 2012-02-22 14:49:14 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
IMO, instead of making the Drake more like other missile boats, e.i. the Caracal, Kestrel, and Cerberus, which are arguably pretty gimpy ships, why not make those ships more like the Drake, which is one of the few missile spamming Caldari ships that actually work.

Those ships problems do not stem from lacking a resist bonus. They have a whole host of other issues that need to be addressed that a resist bonus will not fix.

I don't know about the Raven but the Kestrel, Caracal and Cerberus are getting a Stat makeover soon according to the CSM Minutes and Dev Posts and they will be excellent ships without the resist bonus once their core issues are looked at.
Denuo Secus
#267 - 2012-02-22 17:40:51 UTC
Ceptia Cyna wrote:
Vile Coyote wrote:
Please, no.

I think the Drake is overrused for a reason : people need a tanky BC. Because they lack skills, because they can't afford or fly something better, because they want to try more difficult pve (WH etc) or try PVP and actually stay on the field long enough to learn something.

Give players more options for these roles, and options that do not require spending billions or training for centuries. Or leave the Drake as it is. Want a DPS BC ? Fly a cane, it's what it's made for..


This

CCP will screw many many new Player with this decision. All of the bittervets will applaud as the ship is useless to them besides some lolgoondrake-fleets.

The Drake always was the only viable L4/WH/Plex Caldari Starter-Ship and most likey was "THE L4/WH/Plex" Starter Ship in General.

Besides this change most likely will increase the use in PVP and decrease it in PVE. The Drake is allready #1 in PVP there is no sense whatsoever to change it to be only usefull in PVP after.

If you adjust the Drake, this game needs more Tanky BCs and you need to nerf the Hurrican aswell, maybe switch the bonus to resists... pun intended!


Friendliness to newbs and 'starter ship' isn't a role for a BC. If so...plz add newb friendly PvE starter BCs for the other 3 factions as well. Balance! Roll
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#268 - 2012-02-22 17:53:51 UTC
Amazing, all the posts in here.

Just because its getting the resistance bonus took away and an ROF bonus its not longer viable for mission running, kiting, blobs, small gang and solo.

Pfft listen to yourselfs, it needs nerfed into the ground.

Can honestly imagine how hard life is for you people when the bus route to you work changes.
Noisrevbus
#269 - 2012-02-22 18:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
The winter time-tables put me waiting almost full hours in cold stops throughout my public transport route, you're damn right it's annoying. Whoever drew up those schedules, with miss-matching transit routes, should be fired. Not an ideal to build a game around Roll.

I'd like to commend Gypsio on #246, nice seeing the discussion turn back to point.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#270 - 2012-02-22 19:05:28 UTC
vorneus wrote:
I'm not too fussed about the changes - I don't like flying Drakes and probably still won't after this change (if it goes through).

My main concern is with how it will affect the viability of other ships with a missile velocity bonus like the Cerb, and to a lesser extent the Sacrilege. How it might tread on the Cerb's toes is obvious, what with the current state of on-grid warping/probing and the improved range it would have. The Sac issue is less obvious, as it's rarely a go-to ship for HAMs at the moment anyway, but will be even less so following a change like this.

-Ed

When is the last time you saw a cerb?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#271 - 2012-02-22 19:08:59 UTC
Zyress wrote:
vorneus wrote:
I'm not too fussed about the changes - I don't like flying Drakes and probably still won't after this change (if it goes through).

My main concern is with how it will affect the viability of other ships with a missile velocity bonus like the Cerb, and to a lesser extent the Sacrilege. How it might tread on the Cerb's toes is obvious, what with the current state of on-grid warping/probing and the improved range it would have. The Sac issue is less obvious, as it's rarely a go-to ship for HAMs at the moment anyway, but will be even less so following a change like this.

-Ed

When is the last time you saw a cerb?


Last night

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Frillo Teslar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#272 - 2012-02-22 19:21:18 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
IMO, instead of making the Drake more like other missile boats, e.i. the Caracal, Kestrel, and Cerberus, which are arguably pretty gimpy ships, why not make those ships more like the Drake, which is one of the few missile spamming Caldari ships that actually work.


Cerb is with its low sig a little brother to the fleet tengu, where drakes can easily be tracked by titans etc., so take that jibberish talk elsewhere.

I invite all to take a look on http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

You'll see that the drake is favoured over ships who requires much higher skills. This is because the drake can actually outperform many of these ships because of its insane tank and nice range.
I see it as a problem that a ships with that low skill reqs performs so well.
Also the drake will hands down win over any of the other BCs 1v1 (both pilots being equally skilled). Problem? Yes.

Furthermore I think that changing the drake will make people think more as they fly their dps snipe-mobile, instead of just clicking warp, F1 + F2, win.

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#273 - 2012-02-22 19:21:52 UTC
Khrage wrote:
Gerod Theron wrote:
So they are going to nerf the only Caldari ship that is used consistently.

all these frigging rail boats are worthless. we got the raven and drake for missions. that is the only advantage Caldari have. all of our other ships have other racial counter parts that are more desirable in pvp.



you my friend are so completely wrong it is amazing. off the top of my head: rokh, scorp, naga, drake (still after nerf), tengu (should count as a few ships since it can be fit so many different ways), blackbird, falcon, rook, widow, manticore, cormorant, kitsune, crow, hawk, harpy, flycatcher, cerb, moa, nighthawk, and any one i can't think of are very pvp worthy. leaving out navy ships too.

and if you really want a heavy missile slinging heavy tank pve boat, get a nighthawk or tengu. they are both better than the drake even now. CNR, SNI, or Golem all are great PvE boats too, same with the Rokh, but from the sould of things you haven't crosstrained out of missiles at all, which is your fault.

i'm tired of people saying caldari can't pvp. i won't even get into ecm either...


Don't forget the awsome Osprey, I can't tell you how many kills I've gotten in that beast
Noisrevbus
#274 - 2012-02-22 20:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Frillo Teslar wrote:

I invite all to take a look on http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

You'll see that the drake is favoured over ships who requires much higher skills. This is because the drake can actually outperform many of these ships because of its insane tank and nice range.

Furthermore I think that changing the drake will make people think more as they fly their dps snipe-mobile, instead of just clicking warp, F1 + F2, win.


1. How much is that list an actual representation of ship balance in the game?

Respectively, how much is that a list over how (1) you (the AAA block, and every other assorted low-intensity group) fly Drakes in 500+ man gangs, PL and their ilk fly (2) Tengus in 200-man gangs (while your block is catching up to that as well now a year later), Goons with immidiate pets use (3) Canes, (4) Tornados and (5) Maelstroms in their 800-man gangs while PL once again use (6) Oracles and almost everyone still fall back on (7) Abaddons to deal with Drakes while they use (8) Scimis to support almost all their gangs?

2. Would you still fly Drakes if they were even half the price of those baby fleet Cerbs you speak of?

Skillpoint requirements and ease of use in all honor, but a Drake is free + fitting and a Cerb cost 150m + fitting, while requiring better logistics to stock on an alliance- or coalition-level and scale better once gang sizes pop above tripple digits. Are you sincerely trying to say you use them because they are better? Really?

3. How would removing resistances while improving reach and damage output make you use them less...

... make you think more when using them and by any means move around more? By move around, do you mean permarunning your propmod on a wide anchor to raise mitigation? I highly doubt you mean moving around freely with a tactical mindset of your own. The only thing that change will do is encourage you to raise your gangs to 600.

Realize you are the problem, not the Drake - and your ideas will make things worse, just like Tier 3 BC did.

Ditch your 3000+1500 man masters, along with the rest of your 10.000 man coalition. Ditch your 1500+1500 man alliance and go do something with your corp. Muster the numbers you can, roll out in your Drakes and see how anything from Deimos to Ishtars, Proteus and Domis can stomp you. See people rush you with Tempests and Talos', drop you with Legions, pop you with Rokhs and haunt you with Muninns or Machs. Almost anything out there have a decent chance of fighting Drakes, until you roll 100-man gangs and do it for free in a tired game of attrition, static objectives and volume. Broadening your perspective in that manner would probably do you good.
Scrimtar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2012-02-22 20:57:08 UTC
I dont care much for anything the CSM dose there just puppets for the 00 alliances they work for.
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2012-02-22 23:26:11 UTC
Vile Coyote wrote:
DooDoo Gum wrote:
Max Von Sydow wrote:
I wonder what kind of tank the drake could get without the resist bonus.
Would it still be viable as a lvl 4 missioner?


i have never considered the drake to be a viable level 4 mission runner

It was a doable l4 mission runner. Slow but steady. Without resist bonus you can forget EM/Th missions and probably a lot of the others too. But who cares about beggining missioners anyway ? It is far more important to balance the game for blob warfare.



Whilst this is true, you can also apply the same theory of being able to dig a hole for a swimming pool out using only a teaspoon... but i think an important [though often overlooked] factor is 'Right tool, for the right job'
Vladimir Smugdog
#277 - 2012-02-23 03:01:45 UTC
Scrimtar wrote:
I dont care much for anything the CSM dose there just puppets for the 00 alliances they work for.


I really hope you're actually military, because that would make your statement horribly ironic.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#278 - 2012-02-23 12:15:07 UTC
I think it's great to put the Drake in line with caracal and raven... The increase in damage and the bonus affecting ALL damage types makes the Drake put out more dps and makes it more flexible.
I'm not huge fan of the missile velocity change, however it will be great for HAMs. In my opinion the Caracal, Drake and Raven would benefit from a bonus towards shield hitpoints instead.
Drake wouldn't get much softer on it's own, but would need more remote reps to live through big fleet fights?

Pinky
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#279 - 2012-02-23 14:26:57 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:

Friendliness to newbs and 'starter ship' isn't a role for a BC. If so...plz add newb friendly PvE starter BCs for the other 3 factions as well. Balance! Roll



But the Drake is every race newb ship.

once you can fly your racial tier 2 battlecruiser it takes 22 hours (percetion wilpower attributes maxed and +4 implants) to fly a drake and fire missiles.

It takes longer for a Caldari missile (drake) pilot to fly a Ferox than for any other race to fly a drake.

mind though If you don't have any shield skills it takes about 14 days to fly a drake.


Let missiles run a simulair tree to guns, make Battlecruisers a racial skill or make prequisites for the battlecruisers higher (Racial cruiser 5 and racial frigate 5)

I think that would do way more for the diversity of ships than nerfing one or two.
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2012-02-23 14:30:27 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:

Friendliness to newbs and 'starter ship' isn't a role for a BC. If so...plz add newb friendly PvE starter BCs for the other 3 factions as well. Balance! Roll



But the Drake is every race newb ship.

once you can fly your racial tier 2 battlecruiser it takes 22 hours (percetion wilpower attributes maxed and +4 implants) to fly a drake and fire missiles.

It takes longer for a Caldari missile (drake) pilot to fly a Ferox than for any other race to fly a drake.

mind though If you don't have any shield skills it takes about 14 days to fly a drake.


Let missiles run a simulair tree to guns, make Battlecruisers a racial skill or make prequisites for the battlecruisers higher (Racial cruiser 5 and racial frigate 5)

I think that would do way more for the diversity of ships than nerfing one or two.






Duuuuude racial Cruiser 5 is sooooo loooong, I wanna access C3 WH asap!