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Changes to wormhole mass limits ?

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seany1212
M Y S T
#101 - 2012-02-20 00:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: seany1212
Boodreau wrote:
pierre arthos wrote:
This may sound harsh, but I think the reason you lost your fleet was because you were sat on an unscouted hole. If you'd put a scout through, you'd have seen us formed up and we'd have lost the element of suprise.

Now, something definitely went weird with the hole mass limit, but that only allowed your Archon to die in its home system rather than in Nova. We jumped in as soon as our scout reported that you'd jumped an Archon into Nova. We were as suprised as you when your Archon made it back! So, I don't think any broken game mechanic or "exploit" made any real bearing on the outcome.

I'm sure you'll come back stronger for the experience, looking forward to the next time.



Why were you surprised when our Archon made it back. He jumped back before your fleet did.

As far as corbexx's calculations, did you calculate the mass of the modules on the ships? Did you calculate the mass of the ships that had jumped through that hole a few times already.

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.

Even in the event the calculations were correct, he admitted at least the mass of one of the cap ships should not have made it.


So basically, this whole situation, even if not an exploit that you guys used to your advantage, should not have happened is a situation that CCP should look at cause the WH may not have behaved properly.

On a similar note, I have a cloaky toon still in said C6, who just got several screenshots of NorCorp pulling out. I got the window open showing the hole "had its stability reduced, but not to a critical degree", meaning it is less than 45%. They warp a fenrir, 2 thanatos, and a naglefar to it. The Fenrir jumps. Then a revelation shows up. They all jump practically simultaneously, one of the thanys is a bit behind the rest in activating.

Now only the Nag jumps successfully and the hole closes. The WH mechanics worked properly by my figuring. No issue here.

The question is, why were they trying to jump all of them at the same time when they should have known that all the ships would not make it? Unless they also knew there was a chance they all made it, and therefore using an exploit? If all of them had of made it (as was the case with the AHARM fleet coming in), I would have proof of a possible mechanic exploit (and if CCP checks the logs, they will see it from the fleet fight).


LOL Butthurt much?

Also, we fraps the jumping ourselves in order to try and replicate the bug you discovered with your carrier and AHARMs dreads so that it could be petitioned and proven to CCP that there is a problem with wormhole masses. As for you claiming you lost your home as a result is just you trying to cry in CCP's direction, AHARM would still have gotten most of there fleet into your wormhole, maybe one dread shorter and you STILL would have lost your hole.

If the hole had not have bugged it would have just resulted in AHARM having more arduous work of cycling back round to your hole and throwing more forces through. You putting your whole system loss down to one wormhole bug is laughable at best. Roll

EDIT: You said yourself that the naglfar alone jumped through and no others, therefore it is not a replicatable bug and we did not exploit. AHARMs own publicity on this topic is also proof that they are not knowingly exploiting a wormhole bug, there fleet they brought to there own wormhole was a perfectly viable fitting fleet considering the wormholes size. The only variable with there mass was your own carrier.
Revein
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2012-02-20 01:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Revein
Well there is no exploit that is beeing used on purpose, wh's close sometimes 2 early or 2late after last patch (and i agree it should be looked at)

But worst case only 1 dread (+subcaps)would have made it through to your hole. But that beeing said, would you have faught then or bailed as well. U had 10-12 caps(+all your subcaps) vs our combined fleet at the end there. Must say it would have been an epic fight if u decided not to give up right away when u did see aharm... - plz admit it would have been awesome if u had warped all in! (u had half your fleeet at the hole, warp in rest and make fight :)


We did pos up in your system for fights not to kick you out of system, but when u didnt fight until the very end and then start SD /firesale after that last figth u didnt leave much choice.

Hope u get back in WH and we meet again for funs and not smack talk in local :)

Edit: didnt see seany write at same time^^
Edit2: thx for showing us "the Kracken" Aharm :)
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-02-20 01:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamatitio
Boodreau wrote:

This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.


Boodreau wrote:

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.


At this point you have changed your point of view, to admit that the wormhole was above 50% when your archon initiated the first jump.

Corbexx's calculations are correct, you are misinterpreting them. Let me simplify it a bit. This was a fresh wormhole, with a potential mass variation of 2.7 billion - 3.3 billion, with only 1 or 2 cruisers through it at the time you landed on it - you obviously didn't scout the wormhole previously, otherwise you wouldn't have landed a capital fleet on the wormhole into AHARMs home system.

So 2.7 - 3.3 billion, with the mass that we had, we needed 2.71 bil + to be able to fit what we wanted through the hole (counting the carrier of course), but for rounding it out, we will say 2.8 billion to account for the couple cruisers from earlier.

Your archon jumps into Nova, 1.6 billion mass left on the wormhole.
1 of our moros jumps into your system, 400 million mass left on the wormhole
2 seconds later our subcap fleet jumps into your system (t3 cruisers, ~20 x 15mil ea) 100 million left on the wormhole.
2 seconds later, our second dread jumps into your home system, this is possible, because the hole still has some mass left on it (as indicated above) the hole should now close, as the mass is anywhere from -1.2 billion to -700 million mass left on it.
2 seconds later, your archon jumps through the wormhole and back into your home system.

Assuming that anything from 2.70 - 2.79 would prevent the second dread, and 2.80 - 3.30 would allow the second dread - this gives us an 80% chance that what traversed the wormhole (other than your archon's second trip) should have made it.

So you are correct, an extra cap was able to traverse the wormhole, it was your archon. He jumped after our fleet, and should have been trapped in our home system, next to our third dread and tackle proteus. Technically speaking, your alliance was the one that benefited from this bug, as it allowed 1 more capital to be fielded by you.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-02-20 02:18:19 UTC
WH space being random? **** say it aint so!!
ok, jk :P

Ive heard a lot of people complain about WH mechanics since crucible but the only one i can confirm is the delay in mass reduction notifications.
We chain collapsed out static (C5 > C5) about 30-40 times yesterday and had no mass related issues.

We did come across one odd occurrence that was possibly time related.
When we finally did find the exit we were after (cap capable LS) the chain was Us > Static > C5 > LS.
All the WHs were fresh on time and mass when found but in the 10-15 minute it took for the scout to return to home from the LS and then try to fly a different toon out to the LS to pick up a capital, the Static > C5 wh was gone.
Even though we did thoroughly scout all the WHs and POSs in the chain and there were no actives, at the time we put it down to the C5 locals collapsing the wh in the 5-10min we didnt have eyes on it but we found it rather odd as there was no sign of activity.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Boodreau
The Awoken
Get Off My Lawn
#105 - 2012-02-20 04:54:09 UTC
seany1212 wrote:


LOL Butthurt much?

Also, we fraps the jumping ourselves in order to try and replicate the bug you discovered with your carrier and AHARMs dreads so that it could be petitioned and proven to CCP that there is a problem with wormhole masses. As for you claiming you lost your home as a result is just you trying to cry in CCP's direction, AHARM would still have gotten most of there fleet into your wormhole, maybe one dread shorter and you STILL would have lost your hole.

If the hole had not have bugged it would have just resulted in AHARM having more arduous work of cycling back round to your hole and throwing more forces through. You putting your whole system loss down to one wormhole bug is laughable at best. Roll

EDIT: You said yourself that the naglfar alone jumped through and no others, therefore it is not a replicatable bug and we did not exploit. AHARMs own publicity on this topic is also proof that they are not knowingly exploiting a wormhole bug, there fleet they brought to there own wormhole was a perfectly viable fitting fleet considering the wormholes size. The only variable with there mass was your own carrier.



I said in my post that the Nag was the only one to jump and the WH mechanics worked properly so no issue there.

I just also raised questions as to why you guys would try to jump that many ships through a WH they obviously should not have been able to jump through. If, as you say, you were trying to replicate the issue that 4 or 5 of us feel was an exploit AHARM used to give you guys an edge, so you can report it, then good for you guys for that.

But going by some convo's in local with some of your pilots, they said some things that raised questions. We weren't gona petition a thing despite wondering exactly how that happened. Some of them made it sound planned and like it was known it could be done. And given AHARM's history of using exploits to its advantage, some of us thought to send a petition. Don't hold a grudge on our entire alliance over the 4 or 5 that think you guys used an exploit.

Having said that, pretty much everyone is in good spirits and trying to rush to recoup some lost ships, and get back into a WH and start rebuilding to have another go round. Alliance leadership will discuss the next move in the next few days. I personally hope we do, and that us and you guys have another go round. Just give us some time to recoup first.
Boodreau
The Awoken
Get Off My Lawn
#106 - 2012-02-20 05:00:04 UTC
Revein wrote:
Must say it would have been an epic fight if u decided not to give up right away when u did see aharm... - plz admit it would have been awesome if u had warped all in! (u had half your fleeet at the hole, warp in rest and make fight :)


We did pos up in your system for fights not to kick you out of system, but when u didnt fight until the very end and then start SD /firesale after that last figth u didnt leave much choice.




This thread is not the place to really discuss the tactics of the fight. But yes I do admit it would have been awesome. One of those things we look back on and say "crap, should have done that". That was the first fight with more than about 20 total ships all but 3 or 4 of our pilots had ever been in.

Any other details from our point of view on the fight, feel free to convo us in game. Talking with your CEO (or his alt) in local was fun.
seany1212
M Y S T
#107 - 2012-02-20 08:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: seany1212
Boodreau wrote:
seany1212 wrote:


LOL Butthurt much?

Also, we fraps the jumping ourselves in order to try and replicate the bug you discovered with your carrier and AHARMs dreads so that it could be petitioned and proven to CCP that there is a problem with wormhole masses. As for you claiming you lost your home as a result is just you trying to cry in CCP's direction, AHARM would still have gotten most of there fleet into your wormhole, maybe one dread shorter and you STILL would have lost your hole.

If the hole had not have bugged it would have just resulted in AHARM having more arduous work of cycling back round to your hole and throwing more forces through. You putting your whole system loss down to one wormhole bug is laughable at best. Roll

EDIT: You said yourself that the naglfar alone jumped through and no others, therefore it is not a replicatable bug and we did not exploit. AHARMs own publicity on this topic is also proof that they are not knowingly exploiting a wormhole bug, there fleet they brought to there own wormhole was a perfectly viable fitting fleet considering the wormholes size. The only variable with there mass was your own carrier.



I said in my post that the Nag was the only one to jump and the WH mechanics worked properly so no issue there.

I just also raised questions as to why you guys would try to jump that many ships through a WH they obviously should not have been able to jump through. If, as you say, you were trying to replicate the issue that 4 or 5 of us feel was an exploit AHARM used to give you guys an edge, so you can report it, then good for you guys for that.

But going by some convo's in local with some of your pilots, they said some things that raised questions. We weren't gona petition a thing despite wondering exactly how that happened. Some of them made it sound planned and like it was known it could be done. And given AHARM's history of using exploits to its advantage, some of us thought to send a petition. Don't hold a grudge on our entire alliance over the 4 or 5 that think you guys used an exploit.

Having said that, pretty much everyone is in good spirits and trying to rush to recoup some lost ships, and get back into a WH and start rebuilding to have another go round. Alliance leadership will discuss the next move in the next few days. I personally hope we do, and that us and you guys have another go round. Just give us some time to recoup first.



Given the 5 previous pages in this thread about wormholes masses being in some cases completely fubar'd there are going to be people who have heard stories from others of wormholes doing some freaky shinanigans, so to say that people knew it could happen is a bit of an understatement.

The fact that it's completely random with some wormholes being more than half under mass then closing and others over mass just shows that there is something wrong with the coding but also that It's not exploited because nobody knows when its going to occur. But considering the fleet aharm brought into your hole was a fleet that would legitimately fit through the wormhole under normal conditions and your then trying to petition as an exploit rather than a bug down to wormhole masses (ccp will know the order in which the capitals jumped that hole) just shows you're crying to CCP in an attempt to get your losses reversed. Roll
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#108 - 2012-02-20 09:06:30 UTC
I'm beginning to like this new behaviour. Maybe wormholes shouldn't be so reliably predictable.

.
Sandslinger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-02-20 23:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandslinger
Boodreau wrote:
pierre arthos wrote:
This may sound harsh, but I think the reason you lost your fleet was because you were sat on an unscouted hole. If you'd put a scout through, you'd have seen us formed up and we'd have lost the element of suprise.

Now, something definitely went weird with the hole mass limit, but that only allowed your Archon to die in its home system rather than in Nova. We jumped in as soon as our scout reported that you'd jumped an Archon into Nova. We were as suprised as you when your Archon made it back! So, I don't think any broken game mechanic or "exploit" made any real bearing on the outcome.

I'm sure you'll come back stronger for the experience, looking forward to the next time.



Why were you surprised when our Archon made it back. He jumped back before your fleet did.

As far as corbexx's calculations, did you calculate the mass of the modules on the ships? Did you calculate the mass of the ships that had jumped through that hole a few times already.

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.

Even in the event the calculations were correct, he admitted at least the mass of one of the cap ships should not have made it.


So basically, this whole situation, even if not an exploit that you guys used to your advantage, should not have happened is a situation that CCP should look at cause the WH may not have behaved properly.

On a similar note, I have a cloaky toon still in said C6, who just got several screenshots of NorCorp pulling out. I got the window open showing the hole "had its stability reduced, but not to a critical degree", meaning it is less than 45%. They warp a fenrir, 2 thanatos, and a naglefar to it. The Fenrir jumps. Then a revelation shows up. They all jump practically simultaneously, one of the thanys is a bit behind the rest in activating.

Now only the Nag jumps successfully and the hole closes. The WH mechanics worked properly by my figuring. No issue here.

The question is, why were they trying to jump all of them at the same time when they should have known that all the ships would not make it? Unless they also knew there was a chance they all made it, and therefore using an exploit? If all of them had of made it (as was the case with the AHARM fleet coming in), I would have proof of a possible mechanic exploit (and if CCP checks the logs, they will see it from the fleet fight).



Hey

To clarify a few things

The hole was not 50% reduced as stated. At the point when your Archon jumped in it was 100% unused, we had kept 100% control on that hole up from when we opened it until that time and NOTHING had went through.

You saw a reduction as carrier jumped in because AHARM cross jumped with your carrier into you. As to how your carrier did get back is a mystery in itself, but oh well it gave you an extra carrier on field.

As to when we moved the stuffs out yesterday, we were bug and mechanics testing. We have read here that the variation on wh mass has increased so decided to test it and also to replicate your bug we jumped simultaneously.

Happy to report mechanics worked as intended initially it looked as though all the capitals jumped but then all but one dread got the error message about traffic control and then booted back to your system. Strange that you saw the thana as jumping later it did in fact jump at the exact same second.

As to the weird variations in mass we have had a single obelisk get closed out on a 5 second old W237 hole by jumping through once. This has happened several times now.

And as to everything else above.

I posted a BR of the battle report here post nr 738.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?144-Wormhole-Space-(64-posts-deleted-and-counting)&p=375819&viewfull=1#post375819

It was good fun and we wish you the best of luck forward hope, we havent turned you off WH it was not the intention

Regards Sandslinger
Boodreau
The Awoken
Get Off My Lawn
#110 - 2012-02-21 14:04:21 UTC
Sandslinger wrote:

Hey

To clarify a few things

The hole was not 50% reduced as stated. At the point when your Archon jumped in it was 100% unused, we had kept 100% control on that hole up from when we opened it until that time and NOTHING had went through.

You saw a reduction as carrier jumped in because AHARM cross jumped with your carrier into you. As to how your carrier did get back is a mystery in itself, but oh well it gave you an extra carrier on field.

As to when we moved the stuffs out yesterday, we were bug and mechanics testing. We have read here that the variation on wh mass has increased so decided to test it and also to replicate your bug we jumped simultaneously.

Happy to report mechanics worked as intended initially it looked as though all the capitals jumped but then all but one dread got the error message about traffic control and then booted back to your system. Strange that you saw the thana as jumping later it did in fact jump at the exact same second.

As to the weird variations in mass we have had a single obelisk get closed out on a 5 second old W237 hole by jumping through once. This has happened several times now.

And as to everything else above.

I posted a BR of the battle report here post nr 738.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?144-Wormhole-Space-(64-posts-deleted-and-counting)&p=375819&viewfull=1#post375819

It was good fun and we wish you the best of luck forward hope, we havent turned you off WH it was not the intention

Regards Sandslinger



Ok. so see our side of it.

From all reports from ever pilot I have spoken too, everyone was under the impression the hole was below 50% before our archon jumped. It shrank as soon as he did. He saw your fleet on the other side and let us know and told us to get off the hole (assume in case they made it in, but then changed to a stand and fight order). He jumped back. According to all our pilots on the hole at that time, he arrived on our side, visibly, before any AHARM ship did, just after he did and decloaked (instantly, he was moving away) there was a fury of wormhole activations behind him, with the AHARM fleet entering.

So if its as you and the AHARM pilots say, he should have been trapped on the AHARM side, but from our pilots witnessing, he was back before the AHARM fleets jumps even showed on the WH, then there is obviously a bug there. A de-sync between the systems or something happened wrong one way or another and it needs to be looked at.

If I can figure out how to post the screenshot I will. I will also need to edit out our alliance chat window before I post it.
pierre arthos
Overload This
#111 - 2012-02-22 08:24:00 UTC
Weird. Here's the order of events on our side (at least this is what it looked like from my perspective):

1. Our scout informs us you have a fleet on the hole. Scout calls out "Archon has jumped".
2. We see w-hole activation. Almost simultaneously, one of our 2 dreads (third was en route and there was never any carrier btw) calls that he's jumping in.
3. Everyone else in the gang (1 dread plus 20-ish T3's) jumps in, unsure how many will make it through.
4. Now, I was probably the last of our guys to jump as I was a late arrival. I saw your Archon briefly decloak just before he jumped out.

I think we simply beat your Archon to the punch, thanks to our scout's warning. Even with the reduced session timer, we still had around 10-15 seconds from the scouts call to jump our fleet in to you. To be honest we were parping it a little - we weren't sure how much of our gang was going to get in, unsure how much Norcorp had left to bring, and knew we would be outnumbered badly cap wise.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#112 - 2012-02-22 08:50:20 UTC
Quote:
Also, we fraps the jumping ourselves in order to try and replicate the bug you discovered with your carrier and AHARMs dreads so that it could be petitioned and proven to CCP that there is a problem with wormhole masses.


How would you go about doing that? I would love to see in the rulebook where it says certain wormholes have certain masses. I have seen that stuff published by people that have reverse engineered it, I have confirmed it myself, but that sure as hell does not make it a 'rule'.

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Kor Kilden
Thukker Tribe Holdings Inc.
#113 - 2012-02-22 10:54:20 UTC
I'm unsure if this has been mentioned yet (15 minutes to read 6 pages of posts) but I had a B274 (24 hour) wormhole that I personally scanned out remain alive for at least 5 hours of about to collapse time (normally 4 hours) and a total life of at least 26 hours. As I was not online to see it collapse, nor hit it's time warning, I am unsure exactly how long it lasted. Note that it was initiall scanned within a few minutes of downtime.

Any questions, comments, complaints, mail me in game as I likely won't notice any replies to this post promptly. I do check evemail on my phone far more often than I am online.
Greig Hul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-02-22 11:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Greig Hul
I am posting here in my capacity as someone who was "there", not on behalf of the alliance.

I think what everyone can agree is that the wormhole in question didn't behave in relation to what wormholers have become accustomed to. The undisputed fact is one more cap ship crossed the threshold then believed mathematically possible.

To my knowledge, the only thing we have done in terms of notifying CCP of this is to ask the question, is this the way wormholes are intended to operate. There has been no specific allegations of shenanigans. We are simply seeking an answer to whether any recent change has provided the possibility of an exploit that would allow extra mass to jump through. The reality is that if AHARM were actively exploiting a bug, in the knowledge that they were facing a large capital fleet, they would have brought more than 2 moros. I am however interested to find out if it is possible to use any recent changes to push larger than normal masses over the threshold, and if this is in fact working as intended.

Fundamentally, we lost the fight and our wormhole because we didn't have a scout in the static. A decision was made to man the cap ships for what we were sure was going to be our fight to the end so we rolled the dice and committed every capital ship we had a pilot for in the hopes of landing a decisive blow on NorCorp as our first tower came out of reinforced. There was a 1 in 100ish chance that hole was Nova, and we got unlucky. The one time you don't put a scout in your static and Murphy's law will bite you. That's the way it goes. To my knowledge there is no bitterness or ill will about this, we only have ourselves to blame here.

I can state what I saw, and what many of my colleagues saw on our side of the wormhole. We had moved the cap fleet to the static with the intention of cutting off NorCorp's line of escape. Our archon pilot jumped through in an attempt to crit the hole. At that point we were informed that AHARM were on the other side. The archon pilot ordered everyone back onto the hole for another pitched battle. We heard him state he was jumping, saw gate fire, saw him decloak and align away from the wormhole, then saw the gate light up as dozens of AHARM pilots jumped through. What happened on the other side (who entered first etc) I am happy to take AHARM's word for, because we did not have a scout in the hole. I will however say that I had terrible grid lag following the first gate fire which lasted 10 to 15 seconds which may explain what we "saw" vs what happened.

I think what is happening here is a buggy wormhole, speculation about a recent change to the way wormhole mass is calculated, and apparent mathematical impossibility on the final cap jump combined with recent publicity on ye olde "supergun" shenanigans, brought back into every wormholer's mind thanks to a recent RnK video which all adds up to the possibility for wild conclusion jumping. "We saw extra cap, therefore exploit" is not at all productive and there is no evidence of such on either side. The truth of the matter is we will probably never know exactly happened with that hole, but really it is of little consequence.

Who jumped first, whether the hole was buggy or working as intended, and which side ended up with the extra cap is really of little consequence to the battle - the biggest weapon AHARM brought to that fight was a psychological one and in that moment we were thoroughly ill-equipped to deal with it.

Both sides got to have their victories, we caught NorCorp with their pants down on our POS, AHARM caught us with our pants down at the wormhole. One thing is for sure, a lot of pants were down....but ours were down last and that's the way things go.

Good fights and all that jazz, hope you enjoyed the loot. Was a lot of fun in spite of everything. Its not very often that we get a chance to load that many cap ships for bear and roll into rather large fleet fights. Its an experience that I know the guys in my corp really appreciated and despite the slightly bitter after taste of absolute defeat we had a great time.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#115 - 2012-02-22 14:41:03 UTC
That is all well and good, but that is *not* what your alliance mates are posting here, on FHC, on blogs and on evenews24. We are being accused of deliberately using some sort of mysterious "exploit" to move more mass through that hole. Without any direct evidence, that is not a reasonable thing to do. You are diminishing the great fight you had with NorCorp before we showed up, and are acting like children.

I also find it disingenuous to claim that "every wormholer" is jumping to wild conclusions. The only ones doing so are your alliance mates, I think you guys need to have a little chat.

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Greig Hul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-02-22 15:29:46 UTC
Two step wrote:
That is all well and good, but that is *not* what your alliance mates are posting here, on FHC, on blogs and on evenews24. We are being accused of deliberately using some sort of mysterious "exploit" to move more mass through that hole. Without any direct evidence, that is not a reasonable thing to do. You are diminishing the great fight you had with NorCorp before we showed up, and are acting like children.


As stated, my opinion is my own - I'm only stating what I saw, and trying to put some context around why people may be jumping to irrational and illogical conclusions. It is true that I am probably miles out of step with the consensus of the leadership group here but it is my opinion that there was a bug, there was an extra cap, it wasn't intentionally exploited.

Quote:


I also find it disingenuous to claim that "every wormholer" is jumping to wild conclusions. The only ones doing so are your alliance mates, I think you guys need to have a little chat.


My point was merely trying to place some context around how some people could go from a rather strange happening on a wormhole which nobody can understand completely, to a possibly exploitable bug which would allow deliberate pushing of ships exceeding mass limits over the threshold, to "AHARM cheated". Clarion Call 3 got a great deal of airplay, and I assume especially amongst wormholers which brought the supergun back into stark focus. I was not suggesting for a moment that "all wormholers think aharm exploit", or that "all wormholers are jumping to conclusions" and I sincerely apologize if that is how it came across. I was trying to state how such wild conclusion jumps could have been made.

I'll go on record as saying I have no beef with how the w/e went down. everything was, in my opinion, completely above board.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#117 - 2012-02-22 16:21:25 UTC
Greig Hul wrote:
As stated, my opinion is my own - I'm only stating what I saw, and trying to put some context around why people may be jumping to irrational and illogical conclusions. It is true that I am probably miles out of step with the consensus of the leadership group here but it is my opinion that there was a bug, there was an extra cap, it wasn't intentionally exploited.



I appreciate that, and I agree with you that there was a bug here.


Greig Hul wrote:

My point was merely trying to place some context around how some people could go from a rather strange happening on a wormhole which nobody can understand completely, to a possibly exploitable bug which would allow deliberate pushing of ships exceeding mass limits over the threshold, to "AHARM cheated". Clarion Call 3 got a great deal of airplay, and I assume especially amongst wormholers which brought the supergun back into stark focus. I was not suggesting for a moment that "all wormholers think aharm exploit", or that "all wormholers are jumping to conclusions" and I sincerely apologize if that is how it came across. I was trying to state how such wild conclusion jumps could have been made.

I'll go on record as saying I have no beef with how the w/e went down. everything was, in my opinion, completely above board.



Sorry to jump down your throat on that, I just think that R&K video or not, people's first reaction shouldn't be "Hey, they did something 15 months ago, they must be doing it again".

Props to Greig for approaching this whole thing in the right way. Clearly there was some sort of bug, as way too much mass went through that hole. The right thing to do is to report it to CCP (which has been done) and hope they can sort out the bug that has been messing up wormholes for *everyone*.

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Greig Hul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-02-22 16:38:31 UTC
Quote:


Props to Greig for approaching this whole thing in the right way. Clearly there was some sort of bug, as way too much mass went through that hole. The right thing to do is to report it to CCP (which has been done) and hope they can sort out the bug that has been messing up wormholes for *everyone*.


do let us know what comes of this. If it is indeed "working as intended" it has potential to spice wormhole life up considerably. If its not, it needs to be fixed quickly before someone DOES figure out how to get it working reliably.

I'll sign off on the issue now i think - nothing more i can add, and its getting cold and lonely out here by myself on this limb :)
firewalker220
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-02-22 17:02:41 UTC
Appreciate the upfront and rational approach Grieg. As the first Moros to jump I have to say I did appreciate the second one making it :) and to clarify with the order of events I held my cloak on jump in to wait and see what was going to make it in :P
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-02-23 06:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Wyke Mossari wrote:

The problem not the change, but is people have got used to 'gaming the system', chain collapsing wormholes until they get the outcome they want and expected this to continue, despite the fact it blatantly flouts the back-story of wormholes.

This change is a good thing, it better dovetails with the back-story and it promotes better games play with the fog of war.



You really have no idea what you're talking about. Without a certain amount of predictability w-space ceases to be viable for any fleet operations since noone is going to risk losing tens of billions of isk when half their fleet arrives at destination with no way to retreat because the WH collapsed due to premature randomness. Variances are huge and more frequent now.

And BTW, we've always had to deal with variance. Now, it's ridiculous. Not only are we getting delayed updates but holes are collapsing a lot sooner/later than they have in the past. Crappy state updates + ridiculous variance + frequency = b0rked!

Don't ban me, bro!