These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Crusier Re-balance

Author
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-02-21 23:54:50 UTC
ok so crusiers and battlecrusiers are imbalanced. if we want to fix that we may want to take another look at the roles each ship performs and how we should nerf or buff them to allow them to coexist.
note that the following is an observation on how crusiers should be not how they currently perform.

CRUSIER ROLES

-Versitility is the name of the game, the ability to fit as many turrets and support modules as possible without gimping the ship's fitting and maintaining a high degree of survivability.
-Crusiers can be very fast but still have poor agility (albiet better than Battlecrusiers)
-Crusiers that are slow can tank damage very well due to thier respectable EHP and low sigradius.
-Crusiers can do almost anything. while BCs focus on DPS crusiers focus on support and survivability.
-Crusiers use technology and myrad forms of electronic warfare to subdue thier enemies while maintaining respectable DPS and tank.
-Crusiers have generous amounts of energy and CPU at thier disposal alowing them to fit powerful weapons and equipment

CRUSIER GROUPS
each race has four main crusiers plus a fifth Strategic Crusier that can fulfill many roles. Crusiers can be divided by thier overall roles into two distinct groups.

SUPPORT ROLE
*Ewar Crusier - focus on forms of offensive electronic warfare and self deffensive tecnologies while maintainiing a high degree of customization options.
*Logistics Crusier - focus on self sufficency and fleet support.

COMBAT ROLE
*Combat Crusier - enphasis on dealing damage quickly and efficently in a quick and mobile platform.
*Exploration Crusier - less enphasis on damage and speed and more importance on duribility and flexability.

T3 STRATEGIC CRUSIERS
*ability to fill all these roles, however not all at once, and not as efficently.

WHAT WE NEED FIXED
*The Maller - desparately needs more fitting power for guns and tank (at the same time).
*The Thorax - same thing
*The Moa - please just change the whole design from the ground up
*The Caracal - allow it to fit heavy missile launchers and a respectable tank
-these obviously only names a few, much more needs to be changed.

*general design - many crusiers could use a radical redesign such as the Stabber, Bellicrose, or perhaps even the Omen and thorax

Please if you have any ideas on how to fix crusiers, feel free to express your thoughts..... Constuctive thoughts of course.
Tidurious
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-02-22 04:02:20 UTC
Not really seeing the issues here... A variety of ships for a variety of uses? Sounds like it's working as intended to me...
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#3 - 2012-02-22 05:33:07 UTC
Maybe people would take you more seriously if you spelled "Cruiser" correctly.

But, in reference to the proposed changes, all working as intended.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-02-22 09:11:49 UTC
Cruisers are a problem child at this moment.

I think they have basicly 2 problems.

1) Price positioning is somehow wrong, easy to step in a t1 from a few milion isk, before you can pay for a Battlecruiser hull, you could aford a T2 Frigate hull and a Frigate Navy hull.

When you can pay for a battlecruiser you're very close to be able to pay for a Pirate faction frigate, close to a Tier 3 Battlecruiser.

untill this point there is some kind of order within the steps (Left the destroyer out not realy needed for this)

from this point things become a mess price wise, a t1 Battleship is ship is cheaper than a navy faction cruiser and from there the steps between the ships fall out of proportion.

2) Weapon systems,/fitting

Cruiser and Battlecruisers use the same weaponsystems.

now here is the comparisation between battlecruisers and destroyers more fitting, Destroyers have long been thrown aside with a use as salvagers only, where as the Battlecruisers have been embraced as EVE's main weapon type.

Biggest difference in my humble opinion is the fact Battlecruisers are better at al fronts, more fitting, shield, armor, cap, with the exception of speed, where as the Destroyers don't have all these atvantages towards frigates, they pay for their 8 highslots, by less slots on mid or low, they are hard to fit, little less now.

(In my opimion the tier 3 battlecruisers are going to make a simulair problem (on a smaller scale though) for the battleships)

now the problem is how to regain that ballance between cruisers and battlecruisers and battleships.

I don't realy believe in nerfing and boosting single ships, it's the class that should be ballanceed, without scruwing every new player.

I would look at the prices concerning the faction and T2 cruisers.

Make Battlelcruisers a racial skill (Anmar Battlecruiser, Caldari battlecruiser ect ect.)

and make a new weapon type for Battlecruiser. Upgraded medium weapon, at the same time make sure the large weapons don''t suffer to much.

to make sure PVE doesn't become a walk in the park, adjust mission and dead space levels or create a few new ones.

Put missiles in a simulair tree as gunnery (certain lvl's required before advancing to the next, give stealth bombers a new but simulair weapon type that outside that tree like bombs already are, so people can fly stealth bombers without having to run the entire missile tree.

this sounds like a lot of work which it is, though unlike most remedies it tries to fix the problem instead of the symptoms.
Jaketh Ivanes
Rigorous Rivals
#5 - 2012-02-22 09:57:35 UTC
I agree in concept that all ships needs to be defined a role and then balanced around that.
Present cruiser roles are a very good example, got a tank, a cannon, a e-war and a logistic. Amarr are a prime example. Unfortunately not all of them are setup for their role.
Take the Scythe, it has a tracking link bonus but only 3 med slots and 5 weapon hardpoints. A logistic ship doesn't need that many weapon hardpoints. I would like to see it's med slots increased to 4 and weapon hardpoints reduced to 3 or 2.

Here is a quick recap of what roles each ship class could have.

Frigs:
- Interceptor. Small, agile and with tackling bonus. Could be range of the warp scramblers or cap use.
- Scout. Basically the probe ship, used for scanning and finding the enemy.
- Damage dealer. Frig DPS is fun :)

Cruisers:
- Tank. This should include a speed tank for Minmatar.
- Glass cannon.
- E-war.
- Logistic.

Battleships:
- Sniper. Range bonus.
- Brick. Basically a great staying power so also includes speed tank.
- Glass cannon. DPS bonus.

Destroyer:
- Anti frigate.

Battlecruisers:
- I'm a bit lost here as to which roles they should fulfill, other than bigger tanks and spanks. Tier 3 is a special case and has a role pretty well defined.

Now all the ships should have their stats match their roles. I'll leave the details to CCP Smile.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6 - 2012-02-22 15:55:45 UTC
Jaketh Ivanes wrote:


Battlecruisers:
- I'm a bit lost here as to which roles they should fulfill, other than bigger tanks and spanks. Tier 3 is a special case and has a role pretty well defined.


Mobility of a BS, tracking of a cruiser, DPS somewhere in between.

As opposed to the current state of mobility of a cruiser (or close enough when you take the additional slots into account), tracking better than a cruiser (again because of more slots), DPS somewhere in between.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#7 - 2012-02-22 16:41:34 UTC
CCP Stated thier balance goals that they want to make tech 1s competive with tech 2s in terms of performance vs specialization.

Also they said they where going to perform teiricide of the point that ships should all equally usable at lvl 5.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-02-22 17:50:14 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:

A lot of stuff
Make Battlelcruisers a racial skill (Anmar Battlecruiser, Caldari battlecruiser ect ect.)
A lot more stuff

How does that balance anything? All it does is make a lot of people that can fly any Battlecruiser so back and retrain a bunch of extra skills. 2 thumbs down
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#9 - 2012-02-22 22:00:10 UTC
When I looked at the Moa and the Eagle and tweaked some fittings I thought that they are a little too slow for thier sizes and came up with an idea to tweak it up a little without stepping on another classes foot.
What would you think about an afterburner buff for them?

Don't flame away right now. A fully trained tech 2 afterburner gives a speed bump of 168.75% and a mass addition on top. Now how about reducing the mass from the afterburner and making it so that the speed increase of those cruisers get the afterburner speed boosted from 168.75% up to 230% or 250% at level 5?

The tech 1 cruisers and heavy assault cruisers would get a speed bump and keep thier low signature radius but they don't get too fast so it wouldn't get overpowered.
If my numbers aren't too far of the Eagle would get its speed increased from 515m/s up to 717.5m/s with a 250% speed bump and the same would apply for the Moa and Caracal / Cerberus but with different numbers of course.
The cruiser lines of the Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar accordingly to that idea too, but I didnt run the numbers on them.
The idea behind the mass reduction would also make them a little more agile at the increased speeds but without breaking them too far away from being untouchable.
The bonus would only apply for afterburners and the two tech 1 and tech 2 hacs but keeping the EHP of them as they currently are.
And I agree that the Moa / Eagle / Onxy need a complete different ship model.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-22 22:19:06 UTC
Afterburner speed boost sounds like a good idea
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#11 - 2012-02-22 23:34:50 UTC
The problem with most T1 &T2 cruisers is that outside of specialized roles Battle Cruisers are just a better option.

I Think all cruisers should be significantly more agile and fast than BCs, While maintaining the same is true of frigates over Cruisers. moderate Base Speed increase, Significant Agility increase, and a Warp speed increase...why not make cruisers and destroyers markedly faster at navigating space than anything larger than them, And frigates even faster than that with a blanket 50% increase in warp speed for all of them.
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-02-23 03:15:45 UTC
Xorv wrote:
The problem with most T1 &T2 cruisers is that outside of specialized roles Battle Cruisers are just a better option.

I Think all cruisers should be significantly more agile and fast than BCs, While maintaining the same is true of frigates over Cruisers. moderate Base Speed increase, Significant Agility increase, and a Warp speed increase...why not make cruisers and destroyers markedly faster at navigating space than anything larger than them, And frigates even faster than that with a blanket 50% increase in warp speed for all of them.


the problem with this idea is that T3 ships can recieve bonuses to warp speed. so this subsystem could be rendered obsolite, which it already is.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-02-23 12:38:41 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:

A lot of stuff
Make Battlelcruisers a racial skill (Anmar Battlecruiser, Caldari battlecruiser ect ect.)
A lot more stuff

How does that balance anything? All it does is make a lot of people that can fly any Battlecruiser so back and retrain a bunch of extra skills. 2 thumbs down


If you loose your skills in flying battlecruisers, depends on the initial implamentation.


As for ballancing it is less training to fly an other race battlecruiser than it is to fly their Cruisers optimal.


Not a day or a week, once you´ce trained Battlecruiser V and you start training an other race it´s 1,240,000 SP less to fly their Battlecruisers optimal with medium weapons.

so if you have the following attributes: (because you're training ships and weapon systems)

Perception 31 (with implants +4)
Willpower 25 (with implants +4)

It will take 19 days and 19 hours extra a race to fly them at Cruiser 5 times 3 other races is almost 60 days less training time, for the bigger better ships, that sounds unballenced to me.