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T2 BC Idea: Command Logistic Ships (Tactical Command Ships)
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Jiana Cestar
C.A.R.E.
B.E.A.R.S.
#1 - 2012-02-21 04:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiana Cestar
This is a suggestion thread aimed at adding a new class of ships, Command Logistic Battlecruisers (aka Tactical Command Ships 'TacCom'). They have the ability of battlecruisers to fit Warfare links, and a reduced ability of logistics ships to remotely repair shields and armor.
Tactical Command ships are meant to be the opposite of Command ship's damage role and instead provide repairs along with fleet boosts.
They also have a higher survivability rate compared to standard logistic ships since they have to be on the front lines in order to provide repairs and should usually be flying solo compared to pairs or triplets of logistics within larger fleets.

Please read on and give us your opinion on this idea!

Comparisons between Tactical Command Ships and Logistics Ships:
Benfits over Logis:
Higher survivability than a standard Logistic ship
Can fit 1 Warfare Link module
Improves the effectiveness and survivability of small fleets that otherwise couldn't field two logistic ships.
Combines two important roles in one, so a smaller fleet doesn't require both Command and logi ships and pilots.

Downside vs Logistics:
No bonuses to Tracking Links or Energy Transfer arrays.
About half the bonus range of Shield and RaR transfer arrays compared to standard Logistics
Requires more capacitor use for Shield and RaR transfer arrays compared to standard Logistics
Higher fitting requirement for Shield and RaR transfer arrays compared to standard Logistics
Combines two important roles in one, so if it is blown up, the fleet loses both repairs and fleet bonuses rather than losing only one or the other at a time.

Tactical Command Ships compared to DPS Command ships
Can do no damage (besides maybe drones) compared to standard Command Ships.
Can only fit 1 Warfare Link Module.
Has no bonuses to Warfare Link effectiveness.
Has slightly higher HP compared to most other Command ships.

Quote:
Dhalion - Caldari
Description & Bonuses
Hull: Drake Class
Role: Command Logistic Battlecruiser

Battlecruiser Bonus:
*80% Bonus to Shield Transport range
*5% bonus to all shield resistances per level

Tactical Command Bonus:
*10% reduction in Shield Transport capacitor use per level
*7.5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level

Role Bonus:
*99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need.
*-40% CPU need for Shield Transporters

Quote:
Freya - Minmatar
Description & Bonuses
Hull: Hurricane Class
Role: Command Logistic Battlecruiser

Battlecruiser Bonus:
*80% bonus to Shield Transport range
*7.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness per level.

Tactical Command Bonus:
*10% reduction in Shield transport capacitor use per level
*5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level

Role Bonus:
*99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need.
*-40% CPU need for Shield Transporters

Quote:
Themis - Gallente
Description & Bonuses
Hull: Myrmidon Class
Role: Command Logistic Battlecruiser

Battlecruiser Bonus:
*80% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System range
*7.5 bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness per level

Tactical Command Bonus:
*10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level
*5% bonus to armor hitpoints per level

Role Bonus:
*99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need.
*-50% power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems

Quote:
Salvation, Mediator - Amarr (Not two ships, just not sure on the name)
Description & Bonuses
Hull: Harbinger Class
Role: Command Logistic Battlecruiser

Battlecruiser Bonus:
*80% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System range per level
*5% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Tactical Command Bonus:
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level.
7.5% bonus to Armor hitpoints per level

Role Bonus:
*99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need.
*-50% power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems



Other notes:
These new T2 BCs would have half the range of normal Logistic ships, at 33km vs 63km, making them a close-range support vessel and easily within shooting range of an opposing fleet.

Their current slot layout would need to be changed to fit the playstyle, but I'm not going to make a hard number for slots.

All of them should just have a coloring reskin, except for the Dhalion/Drake hull. It was suggested that the current 'missile bays' that appear on the hull should be removed and a satellite added, sort of like the scorpion's.

Reasons for the names:
Dhalion is a bird from Greek and Roman mythology symbolized as a bird of healing. Continuing the Caldari naming related to animals.

Freya is from Norse mythology as the goddess of beauty and love, but also went to war leading the Valkyries. This stays true to the Minmatar's naming ships after Norse deities.

Themis is from Greek mythology, she was the mother of the Fates, and so the ship named after her could hold your fate in it's hands. Blink This is in line with Gallente ships being named after Greek deities.

Salvation or Mediator are along the same lines of the Fire and Brimstone names of the Amarr religion, only on the softer side, instead of names like Armageddon and Damnation.


Thanks for taking the time to read through this suggestion thread! Main idea started by Nordali Amistran and also thanks to the people of Somer BLINK channel for many ideas and brainstorming.
Nordali Amistran
Tus Emporium
Tus Network
#2 - 2012-02-21 04:58:18 UTC
Thank you for working this out so well! ♥

I was thinking about some kind of a Command Logistics ship for a while, I'm glad that I finally found you to formulate it.



Obviously I think everything Jiana has posted is a great idea.
I am looking forward to any kind of feedback and a good discussion on it though. :)


PS: If anyone wants to join that awesome channel, the name is "SOMER Lotteries". ;-)
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#3 - 2012-02-21 23:16:32 UTC
Great Idea! I like the idea of more drake hulls out in space Big smile


Can't come up with any thing as of now but wanting to give this a bump sooooo.....


BUMP!
seg segtorio
P-5 ACADEMY
#4 - 2012-02-22 09:15:07 UTC
I did not see this before but TacCom could be confuseing in null sec areas, as fleet command will call out
( example ) LS tac JEP, most would not be confused but there are some in every fleet...lol

also the Amarr name still dosen't have the ( name ) that fits, maybe we should open a contest to name it, toss the winning name a few mil isk!

But every one is giving thumbs up. Grate idea....
Jiana Cestar
C.A.R.E.
B.E.A.R.S.
#5 - 2012-02-22 09:27:49 UTC
Yeah, to be honest the name could change if needed, I'd just like to see this idea get some serious consideration. I liked Nord's idea and came up with some of the stuff above with help.

And yeah, the Amarr name is still eh, haha. But again, the names could be changed if needed, not too attached to them. Blink


Would love to hear some more feedback in here! Big smile So if you have a minute or two, tell me what you think!
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-22 09:39:45 UTC
Love the idea of the TacCom, I'll just call them the LogiCom because that is what they'll be turned into because of issues already pointed out. I like that they have little to no DPS capabilities, which is huge. You get a +1 from me.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Nordali Amistran
Tus Emporium
Tus Network
#7 - 2012-02-22 09:50:09 UTC
What I love is that it's getting so much positive feedback!

We spent close to an hour brainstorming Amarr names, this one really is hard...any better ideas, do post them!
Just keep in mind:
- Amarr ships use fire and brimstome religious -type names
- Names that exist in any form already couldn't be used (Guardian, Warden for example)
- The name should have something to do with ideally both main features of the ship, which are Logi and Command
- While names somewhat similar to existing names might work, stuff like "Retributor" would not work as there already is a "Retribution" << too similar.


TacCom might also become a problem with people shortening it to "TACs" - as seg pointed out in channel, some FCs use "tag" or "tac" to describe the minus in Nullsec system names.

My PERSONAL favourite type name at the moment would be "Support Command Ship". Might be shortened to SupCom" in voice.



Looking forward to some negative...well, constructive perspectives on this whole thing! :D
Lijhal
Innoruuks Wrath
#8 - 2012-02-22 10:06:52 UTC
this is pretty much a really good idea

i believe some additions would be necessary if they would ever go live:


Skill requirements:
a) Logistic skill at level 5 (tertiary or secondary)

b) Battlecruiser skill at level 5

Hull:
a) they need aprox. 15% more signature radius to compensate the EHP increase through the HP per lvl bonus

b) marauder class t2 resistances (otherwise these babies would become tank monsters, especially with Active Shielding II or Damage Control II warfare links or the combi t3 warfare bonus + TacCom+shield booster/armor repper)

c) max 25 m^3 drone bay (Gallente maybe 50 m^3)

d) no hardpoints


lijhal

your girlfriend
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#9 - 2012-02-22 10:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tinu Moorhsum
Jiana Cestar wrote:

.snip.

Benfits over Logis:[/b]
Higher survivability than a standard Logistic ship



That's about as far as I needed to read.

-1

T-

p.s. if you could find some special niche for it that (a) isn't filled by other ships already and (b) doesn't multiply the force multiplier effect of logis (essentially running the risk of making more large fleet battles where you will see 30 or more of these in a fleet into stalemates) then maybe....

Right now my thinking is that anything to create a better logistics ship (harder to kill) than what we have now will unbalance fleet fights.

I am, however, really impressed with the thought you put into your post so I'm sorry I can't get enthusiastic about the idea.

T-
Nordali Amistran
Tus Emporium
Tus Network
#10 - 2012-02-22 10:56:26 UTC
I will try to get you more enthusiastic about it!

An important aspect of the idea is that we do NOT want better logistics ships.
With higher cap and fitting requirements for reps the ship is supposed to spit out less rep than current logistics - maybe 70 or 80% of a Scimi or Oneiros.

The ship is harder (tanked) than other logistics, which together with the command bonus make it good for very small fleets - 3-4 men gatecamps or roams, and small level 5 mission groups. Finally an alternative to either dualo-logis or spiderrep \o/

They can still not fully replace real logis in larger fleets, and they are just as vulnerable to ewar as Scimis and Basis (they are not in a Cap chain, and as BCs they have a smaller sensor resolution than Logis (thus relock slower after being jammed).


Does that make it a bit clearer, or do you still think TacComs should have no place in Eve right now? :)


Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


T-

p.s. if you could find some special niche for it that (a) isn't filled by other ships already and (b) doesn't multiply the force multiplier effect of logis (essentially running the risk of making more large fleet battles where you will see 30 or more of these in a fleet into stalemates) then maybe....

Right now my thinking is that anything to create a better logistics ship (harder to kill) than what we have now will unbalance fleet fights.

I am, however, really impressed with the thought you put into your post so I'm sorry I can't get enthusiastic about the idea.

T-
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-02-22 11:20:43 UTC
Like the idea, but I'd rather see some "love" for the existing command ships (i.e. nerf off-site boosters) first, before expanding on them.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-22 11:25:21 UTC
The logistic cruiser is one of the few cruisers that is actualy used pretty much.

before putting in more Battlecruisers lets first fix the current cruisers and than find a way to put in a new battlecruiser.
Zedrah
#13 - 2012-02-22 14:56:05 UTC
Nordali Amistran wrote:
An important aspect of the idea is that we do NOT want better logistics ships.
...
The ship is harder (tanked) than other logistics, which together with the command bonus make it good for very small fleets - 3-4 men gatecamps or roams, and small level 5 mission groups. Finally an alternative to either dualo-logis or spiderrep


Mike Whiite wrote:
before putting in more Battlecruisers lets first fix the current cruisers and than find a way to put in a new battlecruiser


Perhaps that is the route that should be explored.

Rather than a logistics command ship, have a command ship that supports and boosts logistics, a sort of Logistics Coordinator, as it were.

Highly tankable, but pretty much limited to boosting other logistics ships, either via links or modules that only augment logistics bonuses on the targets.

Would follow a similar sort of line to the Tier3 battlecruisers, and to an extent the Orca, in that its meant for gang or fleet use, and would make it a largely useless ship elsewhere.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#14 - 2012-02-22 15:45:46 UTC
Nordali Amistran wrote:
I will try to get you more enthusiastic about it!

An important aspect of the idea is that we do NOT want better logistics ships.
With higher cap and fitting requirements for reps the ship is supposed to spit out less rep than current logistics - maybe 70 or 80% of a Scimi or Oneiros.

The ship is harder (tanked) than other logistics, which together with the command bonus make it good for very small fleets - 3-4 men gatecamps or roams, and small level 5 mission groups. Finally an alternative to either dualo-logis or spiderrep \o/

They can still not fully replace real logis in larger fleets, and they are just as vulnerable to ewar as Scimis and Basis (they are not in a Cap chain, and as BCs they have a smaller sensor resolution than Logis (thus relock slower after being jammed).


Does that make it a bit clearer, or do you still think TacComs should have no place in Eve right now? :)



For small gangs I can see the use of a logi ship with harder tank that could give a command bonus.

The problem would be if it scales up. What you don't want is to make a fleet of 200 guys an impossible nut to crack because you can't break their logi's. It's hard enough to kill them in big fleets as it is. That would be my main concern with a logi that's too hard to kill.

T-
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2012-02-22 15:58:29 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Nordali Amistran wrote:
I will try to get you more enthusiastic about it!

An important aspect of the idea is that we do NOT want better logistics ships.
With higher cap and fitting requirements for reps the ship is supposed to spit out less rep than current logistics - maybe 70 or 80% of a Scimi or Oneiros.

The ship is harder (tanked) than other logistics, which together with the command bonus make it good for very small fleets - 3-4 men gatecamps or roams, and small level 5 mission groups. Finally an alternative to either dualo-logis or spiderrep \o/

They can still not fully replace real logis in larger fleets, and they are just as vulnerable to ewar as Scimis and Basis (they are not in a Cap chain, and as BCs they have a smaller sensor resolution than Logis (thus relock slower after being jammed).


Does that make it a bit clearer, or do you still think TacComs should have no place in Eve right now? :)



For small gangs I can see the use of a logi ship with harder tank that could give a command bonus.

The problem would be if it scales up. What you don't want is to make a fleet of 200 guys an impossible nut to crack because you can't break their logi's. It's hard enough to kill them in big fleets as it is. That would be my main concern with a logi that's too hard to kill.

T-



Scaling will get ugly ... but if they're only 50-75% as effective ... with 50-75% of the range, it may help balance things out (note, effectiveness/range is just for numbers, and I'm not exactly attached to them).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Nordali Amistran
Tus Emporium
Tus Network
#16 - 2012-02-23 00:57:45 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


The problem would be if it scales up. What you don't want is to make a fleet of 200 guys an impossible nut to crack because you can't break their logi's.



Scaling will get ugly ... but if they're only 50-75% as effective ... with 50-75% of the range, it may help balance things out (note, effectiveness/range is just for numbers, and I'm not exactly attached to them).


That's what we think as well, Velicitia:
We don't want a new large fleet Logi any more than you do - the current ones work fine for that purpose.

Personally, I do not believe they will become a problem with the limitations in Range and Healing output that we are suggesting.
But in case they do, I think it could be possible to give them a significantly lower sensor strength than normal Logis.

Make them easily jamable - that might also give current EAFs or generally Jamming ships a new/better use. :)
Cuyi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-02-25 00:04:47 UTC
Really like the hybrid idea! Bump.