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CS = Complete S**t ???????
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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-02-21 22:36:41 UTC
If youre roaming without a prober, youre doing it wrong.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#42 - 2012-02-21 22:42:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
And btw- there are alot of corps who don't have the personnel to include a prober into their gang. Very few people have the inclination to want to be a prober when they can actually kill someone by being a damage dealer. Few people will want to come on a roam just so they can probe.

Probing is typically reserved for your probing alt.


Probing and scouting is actually one of those things that people volunteer for, especially if they're light on SP. Its how I used to contribute to early 0.0 fleets I was in, and I really liked doing the job. Last time I was in an 0.0 alliance it was easier to get probers+scouts than to get dictor pilots. That's not true for leadership boosters who by definition have oodles of SP. Furthermore, a mostly AFK alt to counter a mostly AFK alt.... how appropriate.

-Liang


I'm not stating an absolute and saying you won't find one which is how you responded. I'm saying "few" people will want to be one during a roaming gang where you may or may not need one.

Anyway, this becomes pointless unless either one of us have quantitative data to back up our assertions regarding who and who doesn't want to probe for a booster while on a roaming gang

For me, I think this simply becomes an issue of how EVE just becomes a game of the haves and have nots. You have players with their high SP and dual or tri boxing with lord knows what. And you have the other guys (like myself) who want to keep it simple and do away with all this offgrid boosting crap nonsense. But that's another subject for another time so I'll let this thread get back to Command Ships :)

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#43 - 2012-02-21 22:47:55 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:

For me, I think this simply becomes an issue of how EVE just becomes a game of the haves and have nots. You have players with their high SP and dual or tri boxing with lord knows what. And you have the other guys (like myself) who want to keep it simple and do away with all this offgrid boosting crap nonsense. But that's another subject for another time so I'll let this thread get back to Command Ships :)


If that's the way you're looking at it, I doubt you'd be satisfied with even removing off grid gang boosters.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#44 - 2012-02-21 22:56:56 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Griznatch wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
Quote:
Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot


Im a small time high sec pvper and I take at least one probe capable alt with me all the time. Any fleet with a real objective (not just some ***** and giggle lazer ferox roam) is gonna have a covops scout. Also, you cant activate gank links while in warp, so to use them you have to be sitting in a safe or pos uncloaked. Clearly you havent a clue what youre on about.

As far ws the offgrid boosting goes, not allowing gang links to activate (excluding the mining links maybe) while in a pos isnt too terrible an idea. Requiring on grid boosting means if you wanna split your fleet up across a few gates or to multiple moons or something means bringing along a pile of link ships and constantly swapping around squad/wing positions which doesnt improve the situation, it just forces you to go through lots of useless bs fleet adjustments or do without.


Fair enough about the bouncing derp on my part. You'll excuse me if I don't take you that seriously when you say you do hisec pvp and you have "real objectives". You're simply praying on the weak as it is and showing the continued risk aversion that is hisec pvpers. Which is the whole point about offgrid boosting. It's minimal risk but great rewards.


Well excuse me for not being a ~super elite lowsec pvper~ with only 71 kills in the last year and a half, but I prefer my station games sans carriers :-)

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#45 - 2012-02-22 02:51:45 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot


I fly a covops scout for pvp gangs all the time.... I'm also by no means low on SP as someone suggested many ops pilots are.

The truth of the matter is that the intel and target selection granted by the use of a covop ship is often significantly more vital to the outcome of the fight than the addition of another brawling ship. Further more, a very good scout capable of reading and prediction enemy movements while also relaying that information to the FC in a controlled and concise manner is worth their weight in gold. This is the reason I prefer to scout over younger players.


Anyway, we are all getting way off topic... We started with Field Command ships and have somehow moved to the dead horse argument that is off grid vs on grid gang links...

To get back on topic... BUFF FIELD COMMAND SHIPS.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#46 - 2012-02-22 04:09:51 UTC
Yeah, buff field command ships so that they are the most obvious and relevant choice for squad/wing/fleet commanders to fly. Makes sense, right? Oh wait, the dude calling out primaries probably needs to be on grid, doesn't he ...

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#47 - 2012-02-22 04:15:57 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Yeah, buff field command ships so that they are the most obvious and relevant choice for squad/wing/fleet commanders to fly. Makes sense, right? Oh wait, the dude calling out primaries probably needs to be on grid, doesn't he ...


I hear a covops is the best choice for this, though I'd imagine a cloaky interdiction nullified T3 would actually work better.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-02-22 04:26:48 UTC
DaRiKavus wrote:


Is this something that has happened in the years since their design or are they inherently pants and just not that well used ?



Command Ships are, as you say, inherently pants.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#49 - 2012-02-22 04:26:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I hear a covops is the best choice for this, though I'd imagine a cloaky interdiction nullified T3 would actually work better.

-Liang


And therein lies a big part of the design flaw.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Andrea Griffin
#50 - 2012-02-22 04:29:18 UTC
Thanks for the explanation Liang, a good read and well thought out (as always, which is why I asked you). +1 Internets.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#51 - 2012-02-22 04:32:42 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Quote:
Off grid gang boosters are at risk. These days there is no such thing as unprobeable, and the last patch even nerfed that tactic even more by increasing probe strengths. Just because they are not on grid does not mean they aren't at risk to your off-grid prober.


How many people here roam in a gang where you have a prober? Raise your hand. Only the hardcore dualboxing fleets will have a prober on hand.

The risk here is minimal. Just bounce around from safespot to safespot


Raising my hand too, my booster alt always flies with a sister's expanded probe launcher, the probing subsystem if using a t3 and the probing rigs. If I have the opportunity, I will probe out your ganglink alt with my ganglink alt. This is completely standard. Every decent roaming gang will have a prober with them. Whether or not it's a competent prober is another matter but the same can be said about the FC and any other member of it.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-02-22 04:44:10 UTC
I like to point out that CS scale VERY well with logi, like T3 does, as a lot of them have very high resists, and pair that with their very high DPS totals, and in a small gang you have a lot of Oomph. a fleet consisting of 2/3 5-1 basi, and 4-5 sleipnirs are a force to be reckoned with, as each sleip gets almost (if not more than) 1000DPS

That also works well with Guardians and Astarte/Abso
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#53 - 2012-02-22 05:23:52 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
I like to point out that CS scale VERY well with logi, like T3 does, as a lot of them have very high resists, and pair that with their very high DPS totals, and in a small gang you have a lot of Oomph. a fleet consisting of 2/3 5-1 basi, and 4-5 sleipnirs are a force to be reckoned with, as each sleip gets almost (if not more than) 1000DPS

That also works well with Guardians and Astarte/Abso


FCS do not scale "Very" well with logi, Hacs and t3s do however. FCS do not have a significant resistance advantage over BS and most certainly do not have an ehp or dps advantage. FCS DO have a significant tracking advantage compared to BS however again t3 or HACS are going to net you far better "group tanking" returns on the larger scale because of vastly superior resistances, speed, and sig.

This is the fundamental reason why FCS need to have full t2 resists instead of this half arsed resist profile.
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