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Ships scanners… Why no defense against them ?
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Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#21 - 2012-02-20 09:29:39 UTC
AstarothPrime wrote:
I dont get it...

They nerfed suicide ganking badly by removing insurance payout on concord kills...

What more do u want? 100% omni resists?

I.

That would be a little extreme Lol

And you can't call it a nerf: sure, they increased the minimal value of ganked targets by a few millions, but in it's infinite wisdom, CCP also introduced the tornado. I'm curious to see the stats on suicide ganks, did their number really drop ?

Anyways, suicide ganking is only a part of what I'm trying to discuss about. Personally, I don't feel fine with someone being able to scan my ship and so little I can do about it P
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-02-20 09:48:16 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
And you can't call it a nerf: sure, they increased the minimal value of ganked targets by a few millions, but in it's infinite wisdom, CCP also introduced the tornado. I'm curious to see the stats on suicide ganks, did their number really drop ?

Anyways, suicide ganking is only a part of what I'm trying to discuss about. Personally, I don't feel fine with someone being able to scan my ship and so little I can do about it P


Ah... feelings Twisted

Industrial espionage (which seems to be what you are concerned about) is a reality in EVE - the good news is that what works for the other guy also works for you.

The real defence against your enemies gathering intel from you is your gathering even more intel from them. Get out and do that and you'll be fine.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-02-20 11:05:56 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Best advice of all: go to null sec and actually play the game instead of being another high sec victim of pawns and risk averse *pirates*?

lawl

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#24 - 2012-02-20 14:27:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Not to mention that if you waste a slot on a scanner jammer, then your fit suddenly isn't so pimped any more.
Officier scanner jammer mods.

Problem solved.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
BuzzyBeagle
Centers for Intergalactic Mercantile Acquisition
#25 - 2012-02-20 14:52:51 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
Hey guys,

I was wondering about ship scanners and their effect on suicide ganking: don't they give a little too much information with absolutely no defense against them ?

I mean, getting capacitor status and stuff in cargo seems OK to me, but getting the exact names of all the fitted modules seems like a huge breach in a ship security.

How can you let an enemy know exactly what modules you use and have no defense against it ?
Ship scanners are a powerful tool and so could be viewed as electronic warfare.
Don't you think a counter module should exist, even maybe agression timer when using them against a non-hostile ship ?

This of course would be a huge blow to suicide gankers, but come on, at the moment gankers have it much too easy.

Curious to read what you guys think about this P



only thing worse than a bear is a snitch-bear.

umadbro?
goodchild16
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-02-20 15:31:10 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:


Best advice of all: go to null sec and actually play the game instead of being another high sec victim of pawns and risk averse *pirates*?


yeah, sure, null sec is waaaaaay safer than high sec.... sigh* (not)

we are in business 
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#27 - 2012-02-20 15:44:57 UTC
Thing about putting your stuff in can then having to contract everything around is a hastle, it would be easier to just fit a scanner jammer to a hauler ship OR add an agression counter to ships that scan you, like they flipped your can.

Agression counter on ganker = 1400mm tornado (no way CCP didnt see that coming) that cant track anything + no tank = increased number of people needed to pull off a gank (gank ship and someone to protect gank ship from people following through on the agression counter). Problem solved!

imo, its not the pimped ships that need some defense against scanning (if your ship is worth enough to make your paranoid about a gank then make it cheaper!!!), but the haulers moving stuff around that dont have a hauler alt they can courrier contract them too.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-02-20 15:45:05 UTC
Except it is.

I need new signature.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-02-20 16:25:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Not to mention that if you waste a slot on a scanner jammer, then your fit suddenly isn't so pimped any more.

well. you can put deadspace x-type scanner jammer Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-02-20 18:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Riedle
mxzf wrote:
Here's the timeline of what would happen if there was a "scanner jammer" module introduced.

Scanner Jammer introduced
The only people that waste a slot on them are the scared ones flying pimped ships
All ships with scanner jammers fit are now assumed to be loot pinatas
Now even semi-pimped ships with scared pilots are ganked, in the off chance that they had officer gear fit
And now all the ganked pilots are on the forums whining that their scanner jammers didn't provide them complete invulnerability to all ganking

See the problem there?



True, but then I'd be fitting up an otherwise unfitted tempest with just the scanner jammers for laffs so the idea may have some merit!

:)

Edit:

Also, scanner jammer!
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#31 - 2012-02-21 01:36:46 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Actually you have ways of defence against ganks:

-aim for and fit T2 / named or low price DED mods (there are some)

-watch your screen

-use standings and contacts to increase your chances of never get caught

-never afk auto pilot

-use safe bm's at eatch system you frequently pass by, mission or mine, such as instant undock safes (choose the good station and dock at the good station helps too)

Best advice of all: go to null sec and actually play the game instead of being another high sec victim of pawns and risk averse *pirates*?

Thanks for missing my point Blink
As a null sec pvper, do you want other players to know what strategy you are using on your carrier ?
As a mission runner, do you want other players to know that you have faction modules ?
As an industrialist, do you want other players to know you're transporting 20k m3 of pricey ore ?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then clearly we need a module to counteract the ship scanners.

After all, it is an intelligence gathering module, and there should be a counter to it. Secure containers, scanner jammers, fake dectections systems, I don't know, but I think at least the option should exist.


As a nullsec: Its nullsec, shoot them. Also, caps near caps refit on a whim.
As a missioner: Instant undock, use the godforsaken jump on contact button, and i guess run away if you see a ninja salvager.
As an inustialist: use an orca. the ore hold, corp hangar, and ship bay have a plastic lining.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-02-21 14:27:38 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Thing about putting your stuff in can then having to contract everything around is a hastle, it would be easier to just fit a scanner jammer to a hauler ship OR add an agression counter to ships that scan you, like they flipped your can.


Except any experienced hauler is already using containers since it gives them more cargo space..
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-21 17:23:23 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Thing about putting your stuff in can then having to contract everything around is a hastle, it would be easier to just fit a scanner jammer to a hauler ship OR add an agression counter to ships that scan you, like they flipped your can.

If that's the issue, it would be easier to just allow you to put assembled things in your cargo without the "magical" courier contract wrapper.
Daracon Rage
The Executives
#34 - 2012-02-22 00:09:54 UTC
Because it's just "looking" and not touching? Same rules apply in real life in any given workplace.... right?
T0RT0ISE
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-02-22 01:53:49 UTC
If there was a module used to hide your fitting and since you are talking about defending against suicide attacks then two things would happen here.

1. People attempting to ship scan you would know you are hiding something and will be even more determined to blow you up.

2. It would most likely be a midslot module and fitting one would weaken your defence against suicide attack by using up a valuable tanking modules slot.

Eve should seek to reward intel gathering activities. I know you don't want to hear this and you probably find it irrelevant to your high-sec way of life but if you want some better protection against spying then go hide in a more 'hostile' environment where you can attack people that try to scan you.
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-02-22 01:59:06 UTC
Daracon Rage wrote:
Because it's just "looking" and not touching? Same rules apply in real life in any given workplace.... right?

What about professional glory holes in bathroom stalls?
Steven Fonulique
SF Incorporated
#37 - 2012-02-23 16:28:39 UTC
T0RT0ISE wrote:

1. People attempting to ship scan you would know you are hiding something and will be even more determined to blow you up.


It's been said before but I just have to say it again.

You could hide a completely worthless ship fit just as well as you could hide a loot pinata behind a scanner jammer. The would be ganker's chance of getting a worthwhile haul going in blind is so so so much less than if he could scan you.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#38 - 2012-02-23 17:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Malcanis wrote:

Not to mention that if you waste a slot on a scanner jammer, then your fit suddenly isn't so pimped any more.

You could use an officer or deadspace scanner jammer. v0v

E: someone beat me to it, dammit.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ventro69
61 Mech.
#39 - 2012-02-23 20:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ventro69
The other day a hauler pilot convo'd me and asked me why I scanned his cargo.

I told him I was looking for a gank, but was not interested in his 80mill worth of POS mods.

He proceeded to "warn" me that this was just an alt and that his main was in a tough-guy alliance, yadda, yadda, rabble, rabble.

I hit F1 just coz he provoked me. He was WELL upset.

Also, long before Hulkageddon etc, we would routinely go gank Hulks and Macs just to get our sec down. See, you run a few 10/10's for profit and your sec goes up. Then all the cute pirate girls point and laugh.

My point. NOTHING will ever stop you from getting ganked, coz like me, there are 100's / 1000's of people who will shoot down an empty Badger just coz we can.

Now stop pissing about with OUR game and go play something you can manage.

Ventro69: There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Noisrevbus
#40 - 2012-02-24 09:43:38 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:

Thanks for missing my point Blink
As a null sec pvper, do you want other players to know what strategy you are using on your carrier ?
As a mission runner, do you want other players to know that you have faction modules ?
As an industrialist, do you want other players to know you're transporting 20k m3 of pricey ore ?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then clearly we need a module to counteract the ship scanners.


You do realize any experienced player would answer those questions with yes, right?

Not only do we want it to be the way you describe, but it is the way you describe to a much higher degree than you probably realize. People are using ship scanners in fairly high-end PvP, to scan ships for cynos, specific setups, resistance-weaknesses or track capacitor levels. The same rules that apply in high-sec missioning apply in both low- and null-security (npc, sov, wh) areas as well, don't fly what you can not afford to lose.

It applies there much more than it does in empire, and that's your problem: you have been wallowed into a false sense of security, and when it's stripped away you complain that there must be something wrong with the game. Other people try to educate you, but you insist people with more experience and a broader view of the game must be wrong. Hauler ganks is a debatable topic. Do we want scanning of cargo? sure, however the ease and profitability of cargo-ganks should be closely monitored and balanced. Most people hauling things do it based on similar waging as loss-affordability; risk-reward.
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