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Autocannons and Minnie fittings balance
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Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-02-21 17:32:42 UTC
Ahh just tried a Meta3 guns Armor Cane VS a T2 fitted Armor Harby. Guess who won?

Now that's ridiculous cuz Harby wasn't drained or jammed... Just outanked and outdpsed at all ranges.
Vladimir Smugdog
#22 - 2012-02-21 17:38:20 UTC
Just wait til you figure out how to use neuts!
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-02-21 17:41:01 UTC
^ Cap boosters... Armor Cane has only one neut which is not enough to break through.
Vladimir Smugdog
#24 - 2012-02-21 17:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
^ Cap boosters... Armor Cane has only one neut which is not enough to break through.


We call it a "dual-neut plated cane," for a reason.

And with a pair of meta neuts it fits with without a single point in advanced weapon upgrades. Ironically, this is actually a TIGHT fit compared to most cane fits out there. Lol
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-02-21 17:57:55 UTC
Had 425mm guns)). Still easily chewed through and even had time to switch ammo.

The only possibilty of victory for a Harby was an engagement at 20km+ where it used scorch and my dps was gimped. Seemed kinda ridiculous due to the 74% EM resistance in the armor but he got me to 10% in armor before I chewed on his structure.
DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#26 - 2012-02-21 18:29:19 UTC
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Had 425mm guns)). Still easily chewed through and even had time to switch ammo.

The only possibilty of victory for a Harby was an engagement at 20km+ where it used scorch and my dps was gimped. Seemed kinda ridiculous due to the 74% EM resistance in the armor but he got me to 10% in armor before I chewed on his structure.



2 x HS II
2 x TE II


Nano Harby has a FAR superior optimal than an armoured cane therefore the Canes DPS is gimped not yours.

mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-02-21 18:33:53 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Remember kids: happiness is a warm machine gun!


Twisted


DaRiKavus wrote:
While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.



Yeah, the gallente have damage, the amarr have range (20km optimal with scorch) and the minmatar have fitting variance.

The races are well balances as they are and should be left alone



You failed to mention that Minnie also have better resist profiles, better speed, small sig radius, ridiculous alpha on their arties, able to project damage better at range, still have selectable damage types and better utility than everyone else.

They can also use missiles if they choose. They still have great dps to boot.

Essentially minnie ships have every pvp advantage over everyone else.

No... no biased there.....

Hell, must be nice to have the best ships of all categories except for carrier and t3, in which a loki is probably the 2nd most used t3 next to tengu.

The tengu and drake are the only caldari ships worth using, and one is getting nerfed because minnie pilots whined too much because the cane cant insta beat it, and neut it to the ground like everything else.

What other race can say, I have battleships with Battle cruiser sig radius and speed and still have BS damage.
Vladimir Smugdog
#28 - 2012-02-21 18:35:31 UTC
DaRiKavus wrote:
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Had 425mm guns)). Still easily chewed through and even had time to switch ammo.

The only possibilty of victory for a Harby was an engagement at 20km+ where it used scorch and my dps was gimped. Seemed kinda ridiculous due to the 74% EM resistance in the armor but he got me to 10% in armor before I chewed on his structure.



2 x HS II
2 x TE II


Nano Harby has a FAR superior optimal than an armoured cane therefore the Canes DPS is gimped not yours.



Try fitting said harb with no AWU. lol
Vokradacka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-02-21 18:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokradacka
BTW: can someone explain ....

Why short range missile weapons (mid+large) have bigger PG\CPU demands than long range....??? opposite to ALL other weapon systems in game??? thats dumb , isnt it? Shocked
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-02-21 18:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeshah Volfield
Quote:
You failed to mention that Minnie also have better resist profiles, better speed, small sig radius, ridiculous alpha on their arties, able to project damage better at range, still have selectable damage types and better utility than everyone else.

They can also use missiles if they choose. They still have great dps to boot.

Essentially minnie ships have every pvp advantage over everyone else.

No... no biased there.....

Hell, must be nice to have the best ships of all categories except for carrier and t3, in which a loki is probably the 2nd most used t3 next to tengu.

The tengu and drake are the only caldari ships worth using, and one is getting nerfed because minnie pilots whined too much because the cane cant insta beat it, and neut it to the ground like everything else.

What other race can say, I have battleships with Battle cruiser sig radius and speed and still have BS damage.


We have kinetic damage for mid range (barrage) which falls short, DPS projection wise, compared to lasers.

At short ranges, gallente literally melt our hulls due to minnie inability to brawl properly.

Hurricane could use a small nerf BUT a single problem hull should not justify a race-wide nerf.

If missiles are such a problem (lol), remove them from minmatar repertoire, replacing all missile hull bonuses for something more useful. I'm sure alot of people would love that to happen, from minnie side, since split weapon system gimps a few minmatar ships. I'd love seeing typhoon with different bonuses, for sure.

Drake isn't being nerfed, it is being buffed. Am sure there are several threads you can search to discuss it. The only problem with the potential rebalane is that it won't prevent drake blobs at all.

Finally, angel ships are NOT minmatar. By that logic, nerf gallente alongside minmatar since one of the bonuses (and the most problematic one) is a GALLENTE one.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.
Vladimir Smugdog
#31 - 2012-02-21 18:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
Vokradacka wrote:
BTW: can someone explain ....

Why short range missile weapons (mid+large) have bigger PG\CPU demands than long range....??? opposite to ALL other weapon systems in game??? thats dumb , isnt it? Shocked


Because, like gallente and their "oh no you don't fit rails," problems. Caldari ships are by in large designed to force the player to pick between such obscene decadence as a MWD or short-range weapons. Amarr have similar problems with fitting guns/tank/mwd across the board and also run into cpu shortages now and then.

There's nothing unique about the fitting problems caldari, gallente, and amarr have. What's unique is that minmatar have very few ships where fitting anything is a problem. I can think of a couple t2 ships where artillery is out of the question (vaga for example) and that's about it.

Not touching weapon balance as I think that's something which has been done to death, but as far as ease of fitting ships, especially with under-developed skills, minmatar are way, way out of line.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#32 - 2012-02-21 18:55:39 UTC
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:


Finally, angel ships are NOT minmatar. By that logic, nerf gallente alongside minmatar since one of the bonuses (and the most problematic one) is a GALLENTE one.


Fail...

0/10
Vokradacka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-02-21 19:08:57 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:

Because, like gallente and their "oh no you don't fit rails," problems. Caldari ships are by in large designed to force the player to pick between such obscene decadence as a MWD or short-range weapons.

???? all other races have easy fit MWD+ short range weapons only caldari have better fitting with long range + mwd..... thats why is HML drake soo popular , switch reqs.(HML-HAM) and drakes\tengus problem ill be fixed ....
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-02-21 19:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy Marco
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:
Vokradacka wrote:
BTW: can someone explain ....

Why short range missile weapons (mid+large) have bigger PG\CPU demands than long range....??? opposite to ALL other weapon systems in game??? thats dumb , isnt it? Shocked


Because, like gallente and their "oh no you don't fit rails," problems. Caldari ships are by in large designed to force the player to pick between such obscene decadence as a MWD or short-range weapons. Amarr have similar problems with fitting guns/tank/mwd across the board and also run into cpu shortages now and then.

There's nothing unique about the fitting problems caldari, gallente, and amarr have. What's unique is that minmatar have very few ships where fitting anything is a problem. I can think of a couple t2 ships where artillery is out of the question (vaga for example) and that's about it.

Not touching weapon balance as I think that's something which has been done to death, but as far as ease of fitting ships, especially with under-developed skills, minmatar are way, way out of line.


Perception != reality.

There are many Minmatar ships that are difficult to fit even with AWU 5.

I assure you there is more than 1 ship that has trouble fitting arty, even with AWU 5.
Vladimir Smugdog
#35 - 2012-02-21 19:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
Cindy Marco wrote:


Perception != reality.

There are many Minmatar ships that are difficult to fit even AWU 5.

I assure you there is more than 1 ship that has trouble fitting arty, even with AWU 5.


Do tell which ones you think those are, because I am in the process of making a list myself. I assure you that "I can think of a couple t2 ships," does not allude to the idea there is only one ship that has trouble fitting artillery. There are a select few minmatar ships that can't squeeze on everything you could plausibly ask for with ease; however, that is the situation for almost every other ship out there. You cannot argue that minmatar do not have a grossly disproportionate number of ships with extremely generous fitting stats.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-02-21 19:40:06 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:
Cindy Marco wrote:


Perception != reality.

There are many Minmatar ships that are difficult to fit even AWU 5.

I assure you there is more than 1 ship that has trouble fitting arty, even with AWU 5.


Do tell which ones you think those are, because I am in the process of making a list myself. I assure you that "I can think of a couple t2 ships," does not allude to the idea there is only one ship that has trouble fitting artillery. There are a select few minmatar ships that can't squeeze on everything you could plausibly ask for with ease; however, that is the situation for almost every other ship out there. You cannot argue that minmatar do not have a grossly disproportionate number of ships with extremely generous fitting stats.


Off the top of my head:

Typhoon , Vargur

All the T1 cruisers except the Rupture
Vega
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-02-21 19:41:27 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The Cynabal has a fitting grid that's simply ludicrous.

Cynabal Argument and Pretty Graphs That Aren't Mine

First page has a Cynabal vs. Vigilant example. Enjoy.

Why do I care about that?

It doesn't matter at all. A shield tanked Vigilant with Neutrons and a Fed Navy web trumps the Cynabal (as does the nano Gila) under nearly any condition. It's fast and can run away, but the Vigi and Gila don't have to (although they still can for the most part).

You tards can go on believing Minmatar have the best ships, and the multitude will be inclined to believe you, but when you face off against an experienced PvPer in a Gallente ship VS your Minmatar ship, odds are you will be the one warping out in a pod.
Vladimir Smugdog
#38 - 2012-02-21 19:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
Cindy Marco wrote:

Off the top of my head:

Typhoon , Vargur

All the T1 cruisers except the Rupture
Vega



Sub tier-3 cruisers, heh. That's certainly not unique. Typhoon actually not terrible hard to fit for a t1 bs(try a geddon), you just can't reliably fit arty as the majority weapon system. Vargur, ofc, specifically designed for autos much like the vaga. I would certainly agree with those two.

So off the top of our heads that's (generously) half a dozen ships. Now, I challenge you to do the same with any other race. Go ahead. I'd actually be shocked if you cold find half a dozen ships of another race that DON'T require tight fits, and/or have serious issues fitting mwd/full t2/tackle and heaven forbid you try to put a hull-sized neut on them (assuming they have utility slots). Lol

Quote:
You tards can go on believing Minmatar have the best ships, and the multitude will be inclined to believe you, but when you face off against an experienced PvPer in a Gallente ship VS your Minmatar ship, odds are you will be the one warping out in a pod.


I think I was quick to point out that I am not speaking to the overpowered point at all. All i'm saying is that fitting stats with autos in particular don't match up well with the extremely generous fitting stats of most minmatar ships that allows them to carry artillery. It causes popular autocannon setups to be ridiculously easy to fit. That doesn't make them imbalanced in the sense that "pwn all over races ez wololol," but it makes them far more forgiving to start with and ultimately the best/only choice for new pilots plus the cheapest choice for vets who don't want to sink isk into implants or potentially expensive meta modules.

Personally, I think all ships should have the fitting stats to squeeze on t2 with perfect skills, period. Faction/meta pimping should allow for above-average performance, it should not be the requisite to a standard fit.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-02-21 20:19:20 UTC
Minmatar are not the easy race to start with, they are too diversified. That would be Caldari. And it has been for many years. Thats why you see so many new players in Drakes. I believe they are still the most flown ship.

I understand what your trying to say, and I don't know about you, but I do fly all races ships.

You say the phoon is fine if you fit for short range, thats fair. But in that case the Geddon is perfectly fine when fitting for short range as well. They are both horrible to fit with long range weapons.
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-02-21 20:28:24 UTC
Artillery tempest, you need AWU 5, pg rig and RCU 2 and implant to make the fit usable! Please buff tempest pgrid

[Tempest, artypest]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Reactor Control Unit II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I