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Autocannons and Minnie fittings balance

Author
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-02-21 07:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremy Ironforge
1) Minnie vessels have the 2nd highest PG numbers, and often those numbers aren't that much lower than that of amarr.

2) Same goes for CPU... Horay! We stupid "technologically not advanced" nation sport awesome computers!

3) Meanwhile Autocannons require the least ammount of PG/CPU among turret close range systems.

4) Minnie vessels almost always have more slots! than their same tier counterparts from other races. And since you have ftting resources left...

wtf where's the balance here? Why does the game about ships anwsers the most crucial question - "which ship should I train for?" - with either "Drake" or "Cane" for years now!

PS I know there's Arty that requies hell lot of PG but there are also RCU's and some gallente ships with "-1 slot" to balance things out.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#2 - 2012-02-21 07:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Minmatar ships have high power grid because artillery takes high amounts of power grid, and CCP wants to make them able to use both.

Gallente ships have gimped fitting because CCP wants you to use blasters on them, not rails. (If you ask them, rails are for Caldari)

Doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it is.

thhief ghabmoef

Alara IonStorm
#3 - 2012-02-21 07:59:18 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
(If you ask them, rails are for Caldari)

Who have the worse Grid then Gal...

425mm Autocannon II 154 Pg (Largest Med Auto)
Focused Pule Laser II 132 Pg (Smallest Med Laser)

Harbinger 1875 Pg, 7 Gun Slots 1 Useless Bonus
Hurricane 1771 Pg. 6 Guns Slots and a Second Dmg Bonus

Not very well thought out in general. I do like the fitting buffs on Hybrids.
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-02-21 08:01:45 UTC
Was under the impression some Gallente hulls were missing a slot to compensate for larger drone bays and ability to field more drones than their counterparts.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#5 - 2012-02-21 08:27:04 UTC
Typically no, unless it's a drone bonused hull....the myrmidon could have another high slot and not be OP, though.

thhief ghabmoef

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#6 - 2012-02-21 08:27:48 UTC
Once you go black, you never go back.

You should have got jungle fever like I did. The Minmatar are clearly descended from Touaeg rebels or maybe Somalian pirates, who are genetically similar to the AK-47. Perhaps even the Congolese, who have bullet-spewing machete-wielding unbalanced combat in their heritage.

Remember kids: happiness is a warm machinegun!
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#7 - 2012-02-21 12:23:59 UTC
Gallente where always fitting restricted for balance reasons, what actually made sense in the days of powerful point blank stop and hit ability, higher speed at medium ranges, where ships had halve of the EHPs, weak active tanks, not every BS was a brick and blaster pvp actually was useful and fun in his solo/small gang niche.

Similar things go to minmatar, you had the flexible fitting options and the extra slot, to balance out the lack of raw hitting power at close range compared to gallente and at range compared to amarr.

But given that CCP seams to be unable to do any kind of meaningful balancing today, talking about it seams like a wast.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Vladimir Smugdog
#8 - 2012-02-21 12:31:25 UTC
Minmatar should retain the ability to opt between ac and arty, but do so by reducing the requirements of artillery/reducing grid/cpu across the boar such that an ac fit doesn't have all and sundry grid/cpu left to play with. It is one thing to have a relatively generous amount of fitting stats (more t1 ships should be a little more forgiving, imo, they are meant for newbs). It is quite another to have a full t2 fit that goes on with copious amounts of extra grid/cpu left over with AWU not even trained.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#9 - 2012-02-21 14:39:50 UTC
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.

IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules.

Solo Rifter since 2009

Andrea Griffin
#10 - 2012-02-21 14:57:19 UTC
Don't change the fittings for the autocannons please, what else am I going to put on my non-damage-bonused Amarr and Caldari gunboats?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#11 - 2012-02-21 16:08:19 UTC
Ahrieman wrote:
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.

IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules.



Cough, Cough *Angel Ships* Cough, Cough....
DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#12 - 2012-02-21 16:18:33 UTC
While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.

M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#13 - 2012-02-21 16:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Trinkets friend wrote:
Remember kids: happiness is a warm machine gun!


Twisted


DaRiKavus wrote:
While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.



Yeah, the gallente have damage, the amarr have range (20km optimal with scorch) and the minmatar have fitting variance.

The races are well balances as they are and should be left alone

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Vladimir Smugdog
#14 - 2012-02-21 16:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
Ahrieman wrote:
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.

IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules.


Much closer to balanced at "All V's" yes, but there are ways to maintain that while not allowing minmatar hulls to be absolutely dominant at lower fitting skill levels.

(I like how all of a sudden being able to fully t2 fit with AWU-0 is racial flavor that shouldn't be touched.)
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-02-21 16:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryder 3vyn
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Ahrieman wrote:
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.

IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules.



Cough, Cough *Angel Ships* Cough, Cough....

Angel Ships go two ways though, most people seem to forget that, and personally, I by far prefer the Gallente side to them. Let's put it this way, Vigilant > Cynabal, any old day of the week.


Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Was under the impression some Gallente hulls were missing a slot to compensate for larger drone bays and ability to field more drones than their counterparts.

Oh so that's the reason why my Incursus has only two low slots and no utility high slot, and also is missing PG and CPU compared to a Rifter. That must also be why my blasters are twice as hard to fit! Because with that one drone it would be pretty unfair of CCP to not completely try and gimp the ship, right?

The funniest part is that the Incursus is still a formidable pvp ship, using either rails for 1v1s, or mwd/blasters for killing tacklers, imo it is far better than the Rifter. That's the best part about Gallente - no matter how much CCP tried to gimp their ships compared to the Minmatar equivalent, they are still able to be equal or better when fit and flown properly, and that is why Gallente have the biggest peen of all the races imo.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#16 - 2012-02-21 16:38:09 UTC
The Cynabal has a fitting grid that's simply ludicrous.

Cynabal Argument and Pretty Graphs That Aren't Mine

First page has a Cynabal vs. Vigilant example. Enjoy.
DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#17 - 2012-02-21 16:43:05 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Remember kids: happiness is a warm machine gun!


Twisted


DaRiKavus wrote:
While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.



Yeah, the gallente have damage, the amarr have range (20km optimal with scorch) and the minmatar have fitting variance.

The races are well balances as they are and should be left alone




I am aware that the races are balanced.
I was making the point that each race is able to do something that the other cannot.
The OP is basically asking for the usual Minny nerf and I was attempting to be sarcastic.
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-02-21 17:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeshah Volfield
Quote:
The funniest part is that the Incursus is still a formidable pvp ship, using either rails for 1v1s, or mwd/blasters for killing tacklers, imo it is far better than the Rifter. That's the best part about Gallente - no matter how much CCP tried to gimp their ships compared to the Minmatar equivalent, they are still able to be equal or better when fit and flown properly, and that is why Gallente have the biggest peen of all the races imo.


If it's formidable in its current state and better than a rifter then it surely does not need more cpu/pg and additional slots to prevent it from being overpowered.

On another note....did you bother reading CSM minutes/devblogs ?

They are balancing t1 frigates, cruisers and tier 1 battlecruisers to make them more useful/give them more clearly defined roles.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#19 - 2012-02-21 17:05:24 UTC
Ahrieman wrote:
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.


You're point would have been fantastic other than the fact that matari ships have the best t2 shield resist profile, and ACs have great dmg projection as well as great dmg output via selectable dmg types and double dmg bonuses. Further more their slot layout is brilliant for either plated brawl or ganky shield setups.

You get a 2/10
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-02-21 17:24:26 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Ahrieman wrote:
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.


You're point would have been fantastic other than the fact that matari ships have the best t2 shield resist profile, and ACs have great dmg projection as well as great dmg output via selectable dmg types and double dmg bonuses. Further more their slot layout is brilliant for either plated brawl or ganky shield setups.

You get a 2/10


Addditionally, ACs aren't excesively easy for minnie ships to fit and operate.

ACs are excessively easy to fit and operate on *any* ship. Someone mentioned the Ferox. If I'm looking to fit a Ferox for close-in work, I should be thinking between blasters (which the range bonus makes a bit easier to work with, thus making up for the fact that the thing is about as maneuverable as a rock in a tarpit) and doing something with those 5 launcher hardpoints (thus mitigating the threat of neuts while still hitting decently (HAMs, in theory at least) or maintaining a bit of range (HMLs) or being able to chase off frigates (AMLs)). I should not be strongly considering ACs to get most of the punch I'd get with blasters/HAMs, enough range to not really want HMLs, decent forgiveness vs. frigates, AND cap-less damage.

Leave minnie ships alone (on this, at least), but someone should take a look at the adjustments to ACs and AC-supporting modules over the years as compared to the fitting requirements of ACs... might be worth a tweak.
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