Ships & Modules

Oh come on. You are trying to tell me if something like a pulse Zealot dropped 50k off you wouldn't get smoked traveling 1k/s? With half a brain they could kite you indeffinately.

The sig radius of your ship fit is approximately that of a navy comet. Is your 100ish (maybe 150ish) dps tank really that big of a deal? doubt it. I don't deny that a destroyer would have died, that isn't its role. My argument is that any inty such as a malediction, stilletto, etc.. could have done that tackle without dying, and at half the cost.

1. If you are doing 3k m/s you are microwarping. If you are MWDing your sig radius is almost cruiser sized. Hardly epic. Against even 425 ACs with Barrage (terrible for tracking small objects) I would still be hitting you. If I saw you coming, you wouldn't get close enough to establish orbit without dying horribly. This doesn't account for any shield mods you use as tank (common practice for a lot of jag fits) which would blow up your sig even more. If you are MWDing I can as well, If I fly in a straight line, eventually your orbit will elongate, making it easier for my guns to track doing more damage. Even sitting still, my guns will still hit you. If you screw up once, you get scrammed/webbed/neuted and die horribly.

5. You claim to be doing this all with tackle, if you are doing all this in 24k point range, I can still hit you with guns, and one screwup you are dead. With an arty thrasher you aren't tackling therefore if i feel threatened I just go to 40k + and range the guns.

If you have a fit or some sort of proof to dispute this, please fire away. Having an in system booster does not count.

I think what you're missing is how awesome Caldari T2 resists are. Warrior IIs, HH IIs, and PP AC180s do literally fuckall.

-Liang

I think the problem is that the OP look at the ships as specific support in a general gang, whereas he should look at them as general support in a specific gang.

Too abstract?

The problem the AF, along with essentially every frigate and many other ships as a whole, have - is that the older perspective of "finding something to do in the greater scheme of things" is largely outdated today. That's the perspective that contained the "heavy tackler" approach. The AF-class isn't heavy tacklers, no such role exist anymore for frigates, they are hard/-hitting frigates filling a general purpose role in a size-respective gang or as standalone ships in self-sufficient roles (note: this is how they apply in very small gangs, reminiscent of pair-play). When taken out of it's element it's far too flimsy to perform a specialist role.

Let me give you a similar example: Recons are usually wonderful specialist ships in their element, and they have a fair amount of leeway in what they can adapt to (frigates, cruisers, BC; some BS and Capital situations), once you start hitting well organized BS-sizes and Capital engagements however, they quickly become flimsy and irreliable - that stems from their offense-defense relative - and their role is usually ursurped by Tech III and pirate faction BS, or the role itself is entirely replaced.

Scaling down, Recons have had a similar effect on Frigates. Good groups no longer use frigates particularily, unless they specificly bring out a frigate gang to draw on the benefits inherent in the size or class. This comes from the community evolving and the differences between groups seeing their gaps closing. Nano- and early post-Nano era roaming used to rely on isolating and removing tackle with the use group-effort covered Recons. Today, that tactic as part of a larger strategy, is well-known and utilized by everyone. Some groups may still use throw-away tackle or supplement with frigates, but it's increasingly rare to see frigate-tackle without recon-tackle above it. This evolution is one of the reasons cruiser-sized roaming is getting more rare as well, but let's not delve into that here and now (there are so many other topic where that apply).

So what does the AF do?

Well, with HAC-roaming losing ground Frigates have become another budget-alternative to BC. They are still somewhat hampered by their inability to assume all roles the old (and new-) cruiser gangs could cover (lack of frigate-sized logistics and command platforms, for example), but there are ways to adapt best-as. These gangs are likely to see profile once other frigates (such as the EAF) see improvement, but ever since the Dramiel became popular you have seen odd compositions based around them. It is in this specific environment the AF come in, and where it assumes the same general role as the HAC once did as fire-support and secondary tackle in different ways, depending on the ship.

When it comes to cost-efficiency and offensive prowess, there's few things the frigates have to offer today - but provided you aim to evade and agress, they have appeal where many Cruisers no longer do.

Losing a HAC to a Lach-Huginn supported blob is both more likely and costly. Roaming with some Covops-Ceptor scouts, EAF-support and AF-Bomber mainline together with a Dictor or two can thus be an appealing alternative to some. It's a light roaming concept with small envelope, but it assumes the defensive aspect of the older tactic better in today's environment (ie., jump camps, escape bubbles, evade secondary tackle, mitigate, isolate and kill).

Though ofc, it's a lesser alternative there among 100mn and dual-prop (roaming/thrust + sig-mitigation) tactics, or the larger ideal of cloaking. Cloaky has been the "new nano" for years, looking at development attention.

Frigates as a whole remain a size with classes highly dependent on specialized bonuses, which leave them in a suspense of difficult balance (in class, among class, between size).

There is a 54 page thread over in the Test Server Forum that discusses the pros and cons of the assault frigate changes. Alot of people in that thread are upset that AF might be OP.

Cost:
20-30 million isk is the cost of doing business. It's nothing of a deterrent to a veteran to fork that out for a ship that is fun. Some AF have cruiser level DPS. Some have a cruiser level tank. It is really hard to argue why that, on a frigate platform, would not be appealing. Get a cruiser? Well - they can shoot farther and on paper have the same DPS. The tracking at close range though throws alot of that EFT DPS out the window though. And small guns shooting at large targets? I seem to get alot of critical hits....

Destroyers:
They are extremely dangerous to AF. No doubt about it. But they do not have the EHP or the speed tank that AF get. If you confront something other then a frigate in a destroyer you have a high probability of having your ass handed to you. The thrasher is the only destroyer that has a buffer thank that can come close to AF level. The Catalyst has 500-600 DPS but only 5.5k EHP. An Enyo has 400-500 DPS with an 8k EHP buffer. It's half the size and alot faster. Both a blaster Catalyst and a AC thrasher have to be under 10km to apply the majority of their DPS as well. A wolf with one TE has falloff with Barrage out to 17.5km. Also - a destroyer needs to have the right ammo for the job. A coercer pilot that sees a wolf on Dscan should get out of Dodge. A thrasher pilot that sees an Enyo on Dscan needs to load Barrage or Fusion fast. There are literally hundreds of kill mails of destroyers and AF dying to eachother. That's the way it should be. And an arty jag?

High:
280mm II x 3
Med:
Named MWD
Cap Booster II
Named TP
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
MAPC
TE II x 2
Gyro II
Rigs:
Projectile Locus Coordinator x 2

17km optimal. 18km falloff with close range faction. 900ish alpha. 155 DPS overheated. Can get up to 3809m/s overheated. 2689m/s normal. 119m sig radius with MWD on. It's 94.4m with Halo Implants. If you look I believe that trumps the Caldari interceptors at least for size. You overheat everything until your orbit stabilizes.

AF on approach:
If you land on grid and the target is 30km off AND you're the only one on grid - you warp off. You've already lost. If you land on grid and the target is 15km away? Overheat and get a point. A larger ship will take longer to align to the new threat, get up to speed, get a lock, ect. And you have friends waiting on the gate if you're doing it right.

To be honest I don't think any argument is going to satisfy you. And that's okay. I don't really WANT everyone and their mother in an AF.

The difference is that in the Harpy I don't have to leave the field. I just tackle and kill it.

At 50km it would either be me getting range on him or me warping out. A Zealot is really unlikely to kill me.

Well which is it? Are you staying or leaving? Or are you counting on a HAC pilot to be dumb enough to warp at 0? Again in that case that is nothing your AF did, it is poor decision making by opposition pilots. Any HAC that can kill a Thrasher (if it stuck around), could kill an AF (if it stuck around).

Your active tank numbers, are negligable. Your repper OVERHEATED would barely keep up with 2 flights of warrior 2s. The only thing your tank is noticably good at is taking blaster fire (250ish) because they attack your strongest resists. Still not seeing anything particularly noteworthy except for one specific case.

Here is my fit. Dont bother looking up my KB cause this is an alt with only about 4kms.

{Jaguar}

Gyrostabilizer II x2
overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Gistii B-Type 1mn MicroWarpDrive
Warp Disruptor II
Small Shield Extender II x2

250mm Artillery Cannon II x3
[offline cloak]

Burst rig
Collision rig

1. The signature radius is 120m. "Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpDrive signature radius penalty." Sound familiar? 3,271 M/S with a 120 signature is epic combined with a good tank. You were talking about the role of tackling, but then complain that the Thrasher does more DPS. Just what is your point? The Jaguar setup is better for tackling for the above reasons and better for soloing because it has the gtfo ability that the Thrasher, but more importantly, no other ship {besides things like Slicers and Dramiels) can match. Hit a Slicer up with one of these and it'll melt fairly quickly while your resist profile keeps you in the fight.

2. Yes, a Thrasher has more EHP than my fit. But it is far slower, extremely easier to hit, and it's DPS is only usable at close range. Sure an arty Thrasher does more DPS at long range, but as always, the Jaguar has the speed, agility, signature radius and tank to see it through the battle {probably a lot more battles than a Thrasher will survive). let's see how much EHP yoru arty Thrasher gets. 3k? Not good in combination with the size and speed of that boat. Also, the engagement profile on that Jag is about 10x what a cookiecutter Rifter can engage. You also seem to underestimate the disengagement profile. You can't kill that thing unless you completely blob it or scram it.

3. The ammo used if either RF DU or RF TS, they both give you an 18km optimal and 11km falloff range, the only other ammo I would bring is some Tremor and maybe some EMP which never really gets used.

Not only that, but if you just crunch some numbers through this formula http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage you'll see that sig radius has such a relatively minor effect on turret accuracy compared to speed and range that even if you were bloated to battleship sized sig radius it still wouldn't make much of a difference at assault frigate speeds.

Note that there is a typo in the text compared to the image where the formula sits. You're technically using ANGULAR velocity, not transversal. Note that angular velocity is measured in rad/sec just like turret tracking speed.

To test this, just plug in negligible range and angular velocities with a supremely bloated sig radius. It has an effect, sure, but it's nothing compared to range and angular velocity.

Just thought this may be worth pointing out for those of you who want to really get into the nitty gritty here.