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The Titan issue – a recap and a possible solution
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#141 - 2012-02-21 00:10:28 UTC
M5 Tuttle wrote:
But yeah, at least you have one type of ship beating a different type of ship, instead of having to counter apples with apples all the time. Don't you think that seems more interesting and exciting?

I haven't heard any news from our dreadnaughts, if they've been shooting Titans (instead of just say POSes) I've never heard of it.

When we get a Titan killmail with 100+ dreadnaughts on it or lossmails with 8 doomsdays on them I'm sure the Mittani will tell us all about it. There's some problem with ~elite pvp~ Titans not wanting to engage stuff that might kill them...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
#142 - 2012-02-21 00:16:25 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
There's some problem with ~elite pvp~ Titans not wanting to engage stuff that might kill them...


To bad it isnt you guys that have all those titans then. Because if it was, I am sure you would gladly take huge risks with your 80 billion ship amirite?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#143 - 2012-02-21 00:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
I don't rightly know, pretty much everything done with the supercaps is opsec. It's so SPAIs like us can't screw it up.

Even if I got a supercap I still wouldn't be able to tell you, for the same reason. You'll have to get in with a Titan to get such deliciously secret information, just asking on EVE-O forums (of an internet supercap blib game) won't get you that.

As a nonFC though, if it was reimbursable why not? They train people with hero rifters and drake battles for a reason.

Also I guess ~blueball erryday~~. Meatgrind erryday~, 10% TiDi erryday~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
The Sardukar
Astrotech Industries Ltd
#144 - 2012-02-21 00:32:05 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:


As a nonFC though, if it was reimbursable why not? They train people with hero rifters and drake battles for a reason.

Also I guess ~blueball erryday~~. Meatgrind erryday~, 10% TiDi erryday~


Reimbursing the odd titan here and there is one thing. Using them as you would with Drakes and Rifters, I'd say that even the deep pocckets of Goonsvarm would empty fast. Not to mention those things take 3 f***ing months to build.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#145 - 2012-02-21 00:35:03 UTC
Another way is to nerf cynosural fields somehow. So for example the distance a cap ship can jump is dependent on their mass, so instead of instant titans from halfway across the map it could be made, so it takes them 5 hours instead. You have cynosural jammers on pos's so why not include a cynosural jamming ship? A cap ship like the rorqual that tranforms into a cyno jammer.
Increase cyno fuel costs for supercaps?

Or maybe even get rid of cynos as a way of transportation and make them use stargates like everything else? Its a major gameplay change more than anything that will balance supercaps. Twiddling with the numbers won't really do much imo.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#146 - 2012-02-21 00:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
You'd have to try pretty hard to actually welp a titan fleet, certainly if you had 50 of them. Isn't that what the titan blob is all about?

Something about just needed more titans than the enemy, isn't it?

P.S. You're falling for something, and it ain't love.
Terranid Meester wrote:
Another way is to nerf cynosural fields somehow. So for example the distance a cap ship can jump is dependent on their mass, so instead of instant titans from halfway across the map it could be made, so it takes them 5 hours instead.

This would be so beautiful. Consider all the stuff that could be done in 5 hours!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
#147 - 2012-02-21 00:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Blade Ripley
Alavaria Fera wrote:
You'd have to try pretty hard to actually welp a titan fleet, certainly if you had 50 of them. Isn't that what the titan blob is all about?


Amazing

First you crititize them for not taking risks with their titans.

Then I point out that in all probability, you wouldnt have either.

Then you say, if they are reimbursable why not?

Then someone point out the impractiability of reimburisng masive losses.

And then you go ahead and say sure, but we would blob so we wouldnt take those losses.

ROFL. Brilliant logic there my dear.
M5 Tuttle
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2012-02-21 00:46:38 UTC
Blade Ripley wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
You'd have to try pretty hard to actually welp a titan fleet, certainly if you had 50 of them. Isn't that what the titan blob is all about?


Amazing

First you crititize them for not taking risks with their titans.

Then I point out that in all probability, you wouldnt have either.

Then you say, if they are reimbursable why not?

Then someone point out the impractiability of reimburisng masive losses.

And then you go ahead and say sure, but we would blob so we wouldnt take those losses.

ROFL. Brilliant logic there my dear.


She was talking about risks as in NOT a huge blob, so when the person says "well in a huge blob the losses would be absurdly costly" and she says "well if you are in a huge blob you shouldn't lose them anyway."

Her logic seems pretty sound to me actually...
Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
#149 - 2012-02-21 01:06:39 UTC
M5 Tuttle wrote:

She was talking about risks as in NOT a huge blob, so when the person says "well in a huge blob the losses would be absurdly costly" and she says "well if you are in a huge blob you shouldn't lose them anyway."

Her logic seems pretty sound to me actually...


Lol. Her gripe with team tech is that they werent willing to take risks. So, naturally I asked her if she would indeed take risks. And she say sure, if it is reimbursable. The point is, that if you are willing to take risks, you are also willing to accept losses. Which is impractical in larger quantities when it comes to titans, even for the biggest alliances in the game.

Bottom line: You dont take huge risks with a titanfleet. Nobody does. Not even Goonswarm.
jm24
CRICE Corp
#150 - 2012-02-21 01:16:18 UTC
The solution to titans is to stop whining and build your own. You own tech, you own space, so stop reimbursing morons in roaming drakes and save up for a couple titans and be brave.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-02-21 01:27:28 UTC
There must be 50+ different things that all contribute to the super capital issue. Individually they are insignificant, but combined they turn into a major eye sore for null and low sec space. One must first identify all the contributing factors and address each individually while keeping an eye on the big picture.

Simply tossing out some blanket solution will not work.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-02-21 01:32:33 UTC
jm24 wrote:
The solution to titans is to stop whining and build your own. You own tech, you own space, so stop reimbursing morons in roaming drakes and save up for a couple titans and be brave.


cutting off reimbursement for delve losses was a good start

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#153 - 2012-02-21 01:58:31 UTC
Angela Constantine wrote:

No one will... ...read your drivel anyway


Fixed that for you.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#154 - 2012-02-21 02:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Andski wrote:
jm24 wrote:
The solution to titans is to stop whining and build your own. You own tech, you own space, so stop reimbursing morons in roaming drakes and save up for a couple titans and be brave.

cutting off reimbursement for delve losses was a good start

Tell me more about delve.

Anyway we like losing drakes, it's the next best thing to losing rifters.

No idea what CFC titan production numbers are, sure it's secret though :spai:

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-02-21 09:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Har Harrison
As someone who does not fly supers or even in high sec, I am going to post the following, but will take the criticism (if warrented).

The biggest issues with supers as I understand them are

  1. Titan tracking killing everything including sub-caps

  2. Supers (SC and titans) being able to rapidly move accross the galaxy, bringing OMGWTFBBQ firepower in next to no time (but at a high cost in fuel)

  3. Super carriers not being able to field a flight on fighters AND fighter bombers

  4. Supers EWAR making it hard for non-supers to counter



To me, the following is entirely reasonable fix


  1. Super carriers can field a flight of bombers AND fighters. The fighters will have a chance to apply some DPS to BS and maybe BC.

  2. Supers have a count down timer (e.g. 5 minutes) before thier engines allow them to jump again (even if they DO have the cap). Some sci-fi stuf such as engine XYZ needs to cool down etc...

  3. The ship class that we NEVER see fielded except at Alliance Torny time actually gets a proper role - Electronic Attack Frigates CAN apply their EWAR against supers.


Why do I say this?

Firstly, supers can't field drones. They are supposed to be the heavy hitters. They should be able to use fighters on smaller targets though.

Secondly, the cool down time to jump for supers would stop them being moved rapidly. It would give FCs with intel of what is around, a known window before super blobs can be dropped.

Lastly and most importantly - this ship class is never used in normal game use due to the cost vs benefits. If they can apply EWAR to supers however, they become useful. Since supers will not be able to shoot them effectively, it means the supers must be accompanied by smaller ships AS THEY SHOULD. A sub-cap fleet with EAF support would be able to kill unaccompanied supers. The EAF are very fragile being frigs, so drones, frigates, destroyers and cruisers etc... will be able to take them out, preventing them being a over powered vs supers.

By doing this, it limits how quickly power can be projected, requiring alliances to plan where to project their heavy hitters or limiting how quickly the bat phone can bring in support. It also grants an existing ship class a new role without having to create new cap ships to perform the same role AND forces them to bring sub-cap support.
Joseph Tokugawa
Chaos Theory Exploration
#156 - 2012-02-21 10:57:18 UTC
Well I'm not quite the elite PVPer by any means. Here's my thoughts. Titans & other Capitals don't really incur a significant cost after construction so they can be amassed over time. That's the issue. I imagine it takes quite a while to field Titan fleets of the scale we're referring to but yet no cost is incurred after construction except fuel. Why not simply add a maintenence fee per month or week or whatever to the corp/alliance that owns the super cap / capital. Apply a very inexpensive fee for Dread and Carriers while having a massive fee for super caps. Don't nerf them since they seem balanced in their role. The problem is that they numerically persist and grow. I imagine even as far in the future as eve is **** still breaks. Massive ships have a massive cost associated with them. I don't have enough information to recommend a valid cost / time figure but I'm sure someone can figure that in. Capital/Super Cap ships simply get a maintenence cost to upkeep the massive ship. Hurt a group's bottom line and those Super Caps will actually begin hurting the alliance/corp that owns them.

Individual groups will then have to decide how many they can afford to upkeep and how to deploy them. Even null sec needs to get their goods to markets right? Titans and Super Carriers can't just wander around escorting freighters. Super Caps continue to be an investment and symbol of strength while the intent of the game centered around sub-Cap and caps is maintained. Plus it gives an oppenent looking to hurt a group with a larger capital fleet a different means than hoping they can catch one or two alone or OUT capital the opponent.

Just my thoughts.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2012-02-21 11:06:02 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
[quote=M5 Tuttle]There's some problem with ~elite pvp~ Titans not wanting to engage stuff that might kill them...


Don't worry, that mentality is not limited to RDN/NC.

Really? 4 to 1 and you still can't win?

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Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-02-21 11:08:06 UTC
Joseph Tokugawa wrote:
Well I'm not quite the elite PVPer by any means. Here's my thoughts. Titans & other Capitals don't really incur a significant cost after construction so they can be amassed over time. That's the issue. I imagine it takes quite a while to field Titan fleets of the scale we're referring to but yet no cost is incurred after construction except fuel. Why not simply add a maintenence fee per month or week or whatever to the corp/alliance that owns the super cap / capital. Apply a very inexpensive fee for Dread and Carriers while having a massive fee for super caps. Don't nerf them since they seem balanced in their role. The problem is that they numerically persist and grow. I imagine even as far in the future as eve is **** still breaks. Massive ships have a massive cost associated with them. I don't have enough information to recommend a valid cost / time figure but I'm sure someone can figure that in. Capital/Super Cap ships simply get a maintenence cost to upkeep the massive ship. Hurt a group's bottom line and those Super Caps will actually begin hurting the alliance/corp that owns them.

Individual groups will then have to decide how many they can afford to upkeep and how to deploy them. Even null sec needs to get their goods to markets right? Titans and Super Carriers can't just wander around escorting freighters. Super Caps continue to be an investment and symbol of strength while the intent of the game centered around sub-Cap and caps is maintained. Plus it gives an oppenent looking to hurt a group with a larger capital fleet a different means than hoping they can catch one or two alone or OUT capital the opponent.

Just my thoughts.



Na.

Open the door to this kinda thing and you will see people banging on about expanding it to other ship... Just like a titan nerf...

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Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-02-21 11:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Temuken Radzu
It would be a better idea to introduce a way to fight supercaps without the use of other caps. Unfortunately, captitals mostly immune to frigate class ships.
I would like to see that frigates or only interceptors ships can destroy some of the subsystems of capitals, like repair systems, weapon systems and engines
Think of the posibility''s... while frigates still lack the dps to actualy destroy capitals. They still contribute to the fleet to take down captal blobs quickly.
lets keep capitals/supers a minor but inportant asset of the fleet, but very vulnerable in blobs if they encounter a large fleet of frigates.
After the cap blob is completely paralyzed, the bigger ships can get in for the kill... Twisted
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-02-21 23:29:59 UTC
Just give all supercaps exhaust vents and introduce Proton Torpedo Launcher III for frigates.

Done.

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