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Drake changes from CSM minutes.
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Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#241 - 2012-02-19 09:08:49 UTC
So the question is "when?"
Kyr Evotorin
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#242 - 2012-02-20 18:28:00 UTC
I'd like to note this again: The drake is the only tier 2 BC that has a resist bonus to begin with. It would be logical to make such a change. If people are so dead set on getting the drake balanced, the correct way to go about it would be to look at a modification of the actual ship and not the boni (such as shield capacities, cpu/pg allotment, or Slot Layout).

(P.S. Anyone who argues against this logic should probably go play another game... logic clearly isn't something you were born with.)
Braelyn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2012-02-20 20:35:58 UTC
Kyr Evotorin wrote:
I'd like to note this again: The drake is the only tier 2 BC that has a resist bonus to begin with. It would be logical to make such a change. If people are so dead set on getting the drake balanced, the correct way to go about it would be to look at a modification of the actual ship and not the boni (such as shield capacities, cpu/pg allotment, or Slot Layout).

(P.S. Anyone who argues against this logic should probably go play another game... logic clearly isn't something you were born with.)


I don't understand this logic. You seem to be saying that it is logical to change the bonus in the first statement, and saying in the second part it is logical to modify the ship in another way, not its bonus. I am not really sure which change you are lobbying for. If you care to clarify, it will be helpful in accepting your P.S. challenge. =D

Either way, several tech 1 ships have had their bonuses modified or changed altogether throughout the years.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2012-02-20 20:42:02 UTC
I'm not a drake expert, but can someone who is post what the differences be before and after proposed change? Seems like the DPS might be getting into the silly range with a ROF bonus...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Rashino Zea
State War Academy
#245 - 2012-02-20 20:44:41 UTC
Kyr Evotorin wrote:
I'd like to note this again: The drake is the only tier 2 BC that has a resist bonus to begin with. It would be logical to make such a change. If people are so dead set on getting the drake balanced, the correct way to go about it would be to look at a modification of the actual ship and not the boni (such as shield capacities, cpu/pg allotment, or Slot Layout).

(P.S. Anyone who argues against this logic should probably go play another game... logic clearly isn't something you were born with.)



Sounds to me like you're arguing to remove something because it is different. Homogenization of the ships is just bad anyway you look at it.

It's already been mentioned, but where's the logic behind turning the drake into a BC sized carbon copy of other caldari boats?


But i mean hey, X is the only ship in class Y that has bonus Z. Let's get rid of it; It clearly doesn't belong! Is that the kind of infallible logic you're referring to?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#246 - 2012-02-20 21:11:42 UTC
Hrett wrote:
I'm not a drake expert, but can someone who is post what the differences be before and after proposed change? Seems like the DPS might be getting into the silly range with a ROF bonus...


For HML-HML or HAM-HAM comparisons, missile DPS would be 33.3% higher for non-kinetic and, er, 6.7% higher for kinetic.

If the missile velocity boost allows you to switch from a HML Drake to a ~27 km kiting HAM Drake, then the missile DPS increase is, assuming same number of BCS, 67.7% for non-kinetic and 33.3% more for kinetic., assuming no difficulty in applying DPS (e.g. against other BCs).

EHP on classic dual Invuln, single-LSE, triple-extender Drake goes from 83k to 68k, an 18% reduction.

The whole idea is ridiculous, a classis case of opening mouth before engaging brain. Firstly, a large boost to PVP Drake, particularly in solo/small gang; also a boost to PVE because DPS >>> tank; secondly, complete obsolescence of the Caracal as the Drake is now basically the same but much more powerful, much easier to fit, more flexible and costs minimally more.

Result - even more battlecruiser spam, which is quite near the bottom of a list of Things That Eve Needs, alongside things like penalty-free WCS on supercapitals, and capitals being instantly able to teleport across regions without warning... oh.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2012-02-20 23:00:50 UTC
Thanks. That's what I was afraid of. That sounds like it would be used even more. Bad idea.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#248 - 2012-02-20 23:33:22 UTC
Kyr Evotorin wrote:
I'd like to note this again: The drake is the only tier 2 BC that has a resist bonus to begin with. It would be logical to make such a change. If people are so dead set on getting the drake balanced, the correct way to go about it would be to look at a modification of the actual ship and not the boni (such as shield capacities, cpu/pg allotment, or Slot Layout).

(P.S. Anyone who argues against this logic should probably go play another game... logic clearly isn't something you were born with.)


Just because it is the only one with a resist bonus doesn't make it the only one with a tank bonus. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#249 - 2012-02-21 00:10:39 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Thanks. That's what I was afraid of. That sounds like it would be used even more. Bad idea.



basically...having flown drakes this fixes one aspect of what I thought was broke on the drake, its damage ability. ROF will help that out. Loss of resists a non-factor imo. To me, this a bonus that I'd liked to see pulled on more ships to get a more useful bonus tbh.

People will jsut have to pull some cdfe for resists rigs. they get that ROF boost for thier troubles which was something you could never really fix on pvp drake. Only so many bcu you can fit on a pvp drak (and it sure as hell won't be faction variety) and rof rigs are a bit pve'ish for a pvp drake.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2012-02-21 16:54:13 UTC
Misanthra wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Thanks. That's what I was afraid of. That sounds like it would be used even more. Bad idea.



basically...having flown drakes this fixes one aspect of what I thought was broke on the drake, its damage ability. ROF will help that out. Loss of resists a non-factor imo. To me, this a bonus that I'd liked to see pulled on more ships to get a more useful bonus tbh.

People will jsut have to pull some cdfe for resists rigs. they get that ROF boost for thier troubles which was something you could never really fix on pvp drake. Only so many bcu you can fit on a pvp drak (and it sure as hell won't be faction variety) and rof rigs are a bit pve'ish for a pvp drake.


So you think the drake needs a 33% - 66% damage bonus? If his post is right, even a with the resist bonus removed, the common drake would still have 68k EHP. Im pretty sure that is still more than most (if not all) other BC that have that kind of range. Sorry, but this is a dumb change for the ship that is ALREADY #1 on the kill boards. Bad. Idea.

I was excited that the drake was getting changed, but this is the wrong one, IMHO.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2012-02-21 17:44:49 UTC
Actually this leaves drake as a more interesting and funny ship to fly. Rather than a slowboating turtle. Guess those changes might bring it on par with Cane.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2012-02-21 22:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Actually this leaves drake as a more interesting and funny ship to fly. Rather than a slowboating turtle. Guess those changes might bring it on par with Cane.


Actually, what this change is going to do is turn it into even more effective "Drake Army" ship.

No longer is it restricted to kinetic for maximum damage. It's completely random. With even more damage.

More missile velocity means it's effective engagement range increases by 50%.

At the same time, as a small gang/solo ship, the velocity bonus is completely freaking useless. Meaning it becomes a single bonus ship. Pretty useless to me.



TL:DR - This change is boosting the problem, and nerfing what should be encouraged. Why would anyone think this is a good idea?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#253 - 2012-02-22 08:35:07 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
What do you think of the drake changes mentioned in the CSM meeting minutes.


"CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus instead gain a rate of fire and a missile velocity bonus."


Read as;

CCP needs more ships to die because the alternative to cull inflation is more PLEX intervention and the community responds quite negatively to that.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2012-02-22 09:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ceptia Cyna
Vile Coyote wrote:
Please, no.

I think the Drake is overrused for a reason : people need a tanky BC. Because they lack skills, because they can't afford or fly something better, because they want to try more difficult pve (WH etc) or try PVP and actually stay on the field long enough to learn something.

Give players more options for these roles, and options that do not require spending billions or training for centuries. Or leave the Drake as it is. Want a DPS BC ? Fly a cane, it's what it's made for..


This

CCP will screw many many new Player with this decision. All of the bittervets will applaud as the ship is useless to them besides some lolgoondrake-fleets.

The Drake always was the only viable L4/WH/Plex Caldari Starter-Ship and most likey was "THE L4/WH/Plex" Starter Ship in General.

Besides this change most likely will increase the use in PVP and decrease it in PVE. The Drake is allready #1 in PVP there is no sense whatsoever to change it to be only usefull in PVP after.

If you adjust the Drake, this game needs more Tanky BCs and you need to nerf the Hurrican aswell, maybe switch the bonus to resists... pun intended!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#255 - 2012-02-22 11:18:21 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Actually this leaves drake as a more interesting and funny ship to fly. Rather than a slowboating turtle. Guess those changes might bring it on par with Cane.


Actually, what this change is going to do is turn it into even more effective "Drake Army" ship.

No longer is it restricted to kinetic for maximum damage. It's completely random. With even more damage.

More missile velocity means it's effective engagement range increases by 50%.

At the same time, as a small gang/solo ship, the velocity bonus is completely freaking useless. Meaning it becomes a single bonus ship. Pretty useless to me.



TL:DR - This change is boosting the problem, and nerfing what should be encouraged. Why would anyone think this is a good idea?


I think you're neglecting the effect that the velocity bonus would have on HAMs. The HAM NewDrake would be a highly effective small gang ship IMO.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#256 - 2012-02-22 11:28:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kyr Evotorin wrote:
I'd like to note this again: The drake is the only tier 2 BC that has a resist bonus to begin with. It would be logical to make such a change. If people are so dead set on getting the drake balanced, the correct way to go about it would be to look at a modification of the actual ship and not the boni (such as shield capacities, cpu/pg allotment, or Slot Layout).

(P.S. Anyone who argues against this logic should probably go play another game... logic clearly isn't something you were born with.)


Just because it is the only one with a resist bonus doesn't make it the only one with a tank bonus. ;-)

-Liang


It's funny the tank bonus on the drake and myrm make them the odd balls of tier 2 BC's. And they would both be better ships with offencive bonuses. A drake that could do any damage type, faster damage dilivery and having that range with close range weapons would be amazing! And could you imagine if the myrm had a gun bonus on it like the other drone boats. Hell I would fly myrms if they had the 75bwth of drones and 6 bonused hybrids. I also think the "drake nerf" will turn out to be a huge buff for all uses, once every one realises that with it still having 6 mids and that new DPS you wont miss the tank in PvE.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#257 - 2012-02-22 11:41:39 UTC
Went from 63k ehp to 50k ehp in EFT. 2x LSE, 1x invuln, 1x em rig, 2x, medium extender rig.
Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2012-02-22 11:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ceptia Cyna
Zendon Taredi wrote:
Went from 63k ehp to 50k ehp in EFT. 2x LSE, 1x invuln, 1x em rig, 2x, medium extender rig.


Calculate the Defense Value difference now with Purgers and specific Hardeners T1 for new players.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#259 - 2012-02-22 12:08:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Actually this leaves drake as a more interesting and funny ship to fly. Rather than a slowboating turtle. Guess those changes might bring it on par with Cane.


Actually, what this change is going to do is turn it into even more effective "Drake Army" ship.

No longer is it restricted to kinetic for maximum damage. It's completely random. With even more damage.

More missile velocity means it's effective engagement range increases by 50%.

At the same time, as a small gang/solo ship, the velocity bonus is completely freaking useless. Meaning it becomes a single bonus ship. Pretty useless to me.



TL:DR - This change is boosting the problem, and nerfing what should be encouraged. Why would anyone think this is a good idea?


I think you're neglecting the effect that the velocity bonus would have on HAMs. The HAM NewDrake would be a highly effective small gang ship IMO.


Except that HAM's really need a web to be effective. Which puts them pretty much into the 10k range.

Quote:
Calculate the Defense Value difference now with Purgers and specific Hardeners T1 for new players.


Defence rating for kinetic with 2 T2 kin hardeners, 3 purgers, 1 LSE II, and two Shield power relay's goes from 809 DPS to 607. That's around 25% lost. Pretty hefty.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#260 - 2012-02-22 13:04:44 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:

Except that HAM's really need a web to be effective. Which puts them pretty much into the 10k range.


Not really. Against a basic shield Hurricane, you don't need a web to apply full damage, even with Rage. Unless we're talking offgrid Loki boosters etc.

Against smaller, more mobile stuff, then you'll need a web to apply more damage, sure - but you'll want to web your victim to stop him getting away anyway.