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The case for assault frigates?
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AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#1 - 2012-02-19 20:20:15 UTC
For a little while now myself and a friend have been having an ongoing discussion about the role and place of assault frigates in the eve universe. After a while we conducted a series of tests and our conclusion was somewhat surprising. My friend was a devout jag/wolf pilot but is pretty convinced that an assault frigate cannot be justified. Simply put, there is nothing that an assault frigate does better than an inty, destroyer, or faction frigate all while being markedly more expensive than all but the top tier faction boats. I tried discussing this in a chat channel before, but no one concretely was able to offer any evidence to combat our findings. So are we off base or overlooking something?
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-02-19 20:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Many times they are on par or slightly better than pirate frigates, but for 1/3 the price and with T2 resists.

For instance, here's an example of an AF I've flown with great success. It has 170 DPS tank and 13k EHP against Sanshas and deals 165 DPS all while going 1km/s+ with 33m sig. Show me an interceptor, destroyer, or faction frig that can do all that while still fitting a probe launcher and Codebreaker (or even without it) for a comparable price (less than 50M fully fit).

[Wolf, Sansha]
Damage Control II
Centii C-Type Small Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Capacitor Power Relay II
Gyrostabilizer II

Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner
Codebreaker I

200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
Core Probe Launcher II, Sisters Core Scanner Probe I

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#3 - 2012-02-19 20:52:11 UTC
Is that a missioning ship? I'm talking pvp.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2012-02-19 20:58:32 UTC
No, that's an exploring fit. And if you're talking PvP, then you should specify it. This is the S&M forum, not W&T, so "PvP" isn't assumed.

But there are also many uses for AFs in PvP. I've heard of them being used as heavy tackle for gang work and DPS support, in addition to being good solo boats with the right fit. They can have seriously good defenses for a frigate if fit properly, which gives them good survivability when combined with their tiny sig size.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2012-02-19 21:01:43 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:
For a little while now myself and a friend have been having an ongoing discussion about the role and place of assault frigates in the eve universe. After a while we conducted a series of tests and our conclusion was somewhat surprising. My friend was a devout jag/wolf pilot but is pretty convinced that an assault frigate cannot be justified. Simply put, there is nothing that an assault frigate does better than an inty, destroyer, or faction frigate all while being markedly more expensive than all but the top tier faction boats. I tried discussing this in a chat channel before, but no one concretely was able to offer any evidence to combat our findings. So are we off base or overlooking something?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the AFs just received a considerable buffing, making them pretty mean DPS/Tank machines?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#6 - 2012-02-19 21:47:52 UTC
That is precisely the thing that we tested. And came up with a resounding "no" even post buff. Any ship with a web and or neuts is going to make that AF dangerous to fly. Anything with a MWD you can't catch except for maybe some battleships, if you fit a MWD your sig makes you vulnerable to almost any gun size.
YesI'mWatching
Cool4Cats
#7 - 2012-02-19 21:51:53 UTC
Atttack a few AF's with frigs and interceptors and let us know how you get on.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#8 - 2012-02-19 22:18:57 UTC
Paging Liang Nuren. Paging Liang Nuren....
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-02-19 22:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryder 3vyn
I would gladly solo two or three Dessies at once in an AF.

Interceptors? ******* forget it... no way those stand a chance. AF are stupidly good at tanking and DPS. They are more than fast enough as well.

I think basicly if you're in a bigger fleet, go Inti or Dessie, but really small roams, like solo or two to three guys, you can't really **** with a well flown AF
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#10 - 2012-02-19 22:25:35 UTC
YesI'mWatching wrote:
Atttack a few AF's with frigs and interceptors and let us know how you get on.

A thrasher, navy slicer, dramiel and even some comets say you look nice on a killmail. And with the exception of the dramiel all of them are at least half the cost.
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-02-19 22:29:38 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:
YesI'mWatching wrote:
Atttack a few AF's with frigs and interceptors and let us know how you get on.

A thrasher, navy slicer, dramiel and even some comets say you look nice on a killmail. And with the exception of the dramiel all of them are at least half the cost.

Tell me where you roam in your Thrasher so I can solo you in my AF with the same ease with which I scratch the crusties in my arse in the morning.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#12 - 2012-02-19 22:39:58 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
I would gladly solo two or three Dessies at once in an AF.

Interceptors? ******* forget it... no way those stand a chance. AF are stupidly good at tanking and DPS. They are more than fast enough as well.

I think basicly if you're in a bigger fleet, go Inti or Dessie, but really small roams, like solo or two to three guys, you can't really **** with a well flown AF

Barring them being completely terrible you'd be lucky to solo one.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#13 - 2012-02-19 22:43:56 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
AmIDeadyet wrote:
YesI'mWatching wrote:
Atttack a few AF's with frigs and interceptors and let us know how you get on.

A thrasher, navy slicer, dramiel and even some comets say you look nice on a killmail. And with the exception of the dramiel all of them are at least half the cost.

Tell me where you roam in your Thrasher so I can solo you in my AF with the same ease with which I scratch the crusties in my arse in the morning.


That's your "proof"? No numbers,builds,or tactics? Wow. If you can't even theory craft it it isn't worth the time. We've done tests that have put the victim at a complete and total disadvantage and the results were the same.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#14 - 2012-02-19 22:45:33 UTC
AF's, now that they are buffed, have a mean combination of DPS, Tank and mobility that makes them dangerous little buggers that are tough to get rid of. Now in any of those particular areas other ships surpass them handily, but nothing else gets quite this combination. This makes them excellent heavy tackle, wolf packs, and small gang ships. Their role in larger fleets is better suited to something more specialized though, like interceptors. Mostly, they are a funner-to-fly and more mobile alternative to t1 combat cruisers.

Overhaul Dscan!
Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2012-02-19 22:53:17 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:
We've done tests

This says nothing. Show fit and ship type or this is meaningless.

We have 0 idea of the quality of these tests.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#16 - 2012-02-19 22:55:47 UTC
What is even more, is that you guys are posing 1v1s and still not offering any sort of proof. I wasn't even intending that per se. Pick anything that an AF is supposed to do, the destroyer does more damage, the interceptor/faction frigate is harder to kill. The concept of heavy tackle from an assault frigate standpoint is simply a myth. Heck a stabber can do what any of them do, and is STILL cheaper, does more damage, and has more survivability.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#17 - 2012-02-19 23:04:30 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
AmIDeadyet wrote:
We've done tests

This says nothing. Show fit and ship type or this is meaningless.

We have 0 idea of the quality of these tests.


At least you are interested in actually answering the question. The 2 main targets we used were a standard nano rupture and an armor cane. We tried 7 different jag fits, a vengeance and a wolf. All of the results were roughly the same. Vs the cane the 2x webs meant the approach and orbit saw the AF shot to death because the cane could dictate range. We then fit a web to the jag, better but the jag then capped out due to the neuts on the cane. This is starting with the AF at zero. On any sort of approach scenario the AF took too much damage coming in. We both flew both ships to rule out pilot error and the results were the same. Vs the rupture the jag had trouble catching it. If it did (using) MWD it barely survived. It then got neuted and would have easily died.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#18 - 2012-02-19 23:17:11 UTC
The problem with your test is that its like testing harbinger against curse and sayng harbinger has no role in the game.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#19 - 2012-02-19 23:26:31 UTC
Yeah, testing a frig hull against a dual-web Cane with neuts and complaining that it dies is like complaining that the interceptor managed to land point on your ship. No duh; that's what it's designed to do. A dual-web Cane with neuts is pretty much THE anti-frig ship and 'testing' a frig against it and calling that the baseline is pretty stupid.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2012-02-19 23:52:11 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:
That is precisely the thing that we tested. And came up with a resounding "no" even post buff. Any ship with a web and or neuts is going to make that AF dangerous to fly. Anything with a MWD you can't catch except for maybe some battleships, if you fit a MWD your sig makes you vulnerable to almost any gun size.


They say a picture says a thousand words, so I figure some videos ought to say more:
http://vimeo.com/34665420 -- This is pre AF boost
http://vimeo.com/35642474 -- This is post AF boost (mostly).

I've got about 1.5 hours of footage not in videos right now and some of it I'm sure never will make it. However, I've got at least 3 videos in production right now... but its looking more and more like Amamake Fun IV and Amamake Fun V will come out simultaneously.

Anyway, AFs are damn near OP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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