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Regarding Inflation and plex prices.
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Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-02-19 18:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Daeva Teresa wrote:
Guys, you all are looking at this problem from bad angle.

People will buy plex for real money and will sell it for isk only if they need isk - large amount and fast. Since its really easy now to make large amounth of isk fast (incursions, sleepers) lot of people who funded theyr's pvp with real money just dont need this anymore.

Please stop looking at this problem from view of people who buys plex for isk. The real problem here is with people who buys plex for real money and then sells it for isk (im one of these people).


If RL money were to blame then if there are too many of them are buying plex you'd expect to see prices come down due to supply out stripping demand.

But volumes traded rather than spikes at certain points seem to remain stable looking from the history, it doesnt seem to be trending up overall over the last year anyhow.

If volumes went down then you'd expect prices to increse, but the volumes spike at the times of the spike incresaes. So it can only be attributable to player value placed on them.

Also I see it as a partnership of any blame (if deserved) as it takes someone to sell them and someone to buy them for the market to be active.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Wes Magyar
Ex Con Inc.
#22 - 2012-02-19 18:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Wes Magyar
And everyone seems to think i place blame entirely on Incursions. in my initial post i just stated that was the primary factor i noticed. But inflation overall has been occurring. But that being said can you point to any empirical evidence other then incursions that can explain the phenomenon? Sure there where spikes around the times of the expansion and the promotion "But" there has been a steady increase in prices even outside of those time periods, an increase of 200 million isk per is rather large. plexes have almost doubled in price. and they probably will if trends continue.
And eve's population has actually declined. not increased.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-02-19 19:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Wes Magyar wrote:
And everyone seems to think i place blame entirely on Incursions. in my initial post i just stated that was the primary factor i noticed. But inflation overall has been occurring. But that being said can you point to any empirical evidence other then incursions that can explain the phenomenon? Sure there where spikes around the times of the expansion and the promotion "But" there has been a steady increase in prices even outside of those time periods, an increase of 200 million isk per is rather large. plexes have almost doubled in price. and they probably will if trends continue.
And eve's population has actually declined. not increased.


Sepculation and scaremonegering without proof. Could be more damaging due to erroneous reasoning.

I have explained a viable reason for the plex spikes due to behaviour with plex purchases and development/promotions, and supports it better due to co-incidental changes. Your problem is you havent associated that the majority of the isk and purchases are associated with incursion runners. I would consider there is more money to be injected from missioning/ratting overall by the vast majority of the databse that generates more isk than incurions. This will get sloshed around the game due to various isk transaction movements. And like I said the clearest indication we have is volumes of Plex involved.

Responsibility is on you to support your claims.

Also I remember seeing a recent graph from a CCP twitter about populations that suggested the playerbase had stagnated. Happy for you to actually present some proof for once to support another claim however.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Wes Magyar
Ex Con Inc.
#24 - 2012-02-19 19:57:21 UTC
The market Data is in the client... The Volume of plexes on the market has stayed relatively the same and the price has raised by 200 million isk while actual sales have gone down. The price has increased relatively steadily since the incursion launch (with some spikes around the expansion and promotions) while mission payouts have gone down due to changes in the amount of loot that rats drop in the missions has decreased. (there where devblogs about that last year)
the information is there if you choose to look for yourself.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-02-19 20:09:11 UTC
Wes Magyar wrote:
The market Data is in the client... The Volume of plexes on the market has stayed relatively the same and the price has raised by 200 million isk while actual sales have gone down. The price has increased relatively steadily since the incursion launch (with some spikes around the expansion and promotions) while mission payouts have gone down due to changes in the amount of loot that rats drop in the missions has decreased. (there where devblogs about that last year)
the information is there if you choose to look for yourself.


The prices have increased with spikes surrounding game changes, they are clear to see from the graph how they co-incide with features and promotions. Player attitudes due to these will change relative values accordingly surrounding plex.

Loot doesnt provide and isk faucet or sink, sale of goods/minerals only moves isk around it does nothing on an inflationary scale, it relates to bounties. Which given playerbase skill improvements and awareness you'd expect to see increase. Would help if you could grasp basic understanding here.

Last year isnt very relevant is it, other than it shows from the last QEN the relative isk injection associated with bounties as being the most significant, but seeing as this is prior to relevant game changes it can hardly be used to substantiate anything.

As far as I can see its a "strawman" for meta nerf of incursions, especially as no supporting evidence to prove the claims. Or its I go for the obvious thing rather than understanding EvE economy holistically. Not going to go round in circles with you about it.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Wes Magyar
Ex Con Inc.
#26 - 2012-02-19 20:17:38 UTC
lol your the one going in circles the simple matter of fact is there is inflation. plain and simple you cant deny that. prices have gone up. things cost more isk.
The fact that plexes cost 500 million isk per now proves that. the fact that just about everything costs twice as much. with maybe the exception of Minerals. ships cost more. ammo costs more. drones cost more. so on and so forth. i don't see any trends of this going down. that is a problem. do you not at least agree with that much?
Mr MaltaProject
inFluX.
Good Sax
#27 - 2012-02-19 20:48:46 UTC
Wes Magyar wrote:
lol your the one going in circles the simple matter of fact is there is inflation. plain and simple you cant deny that. prices have gone up. things cost more isk.
The fact that plexes cost 500 million isk per now proves that. the fact that just about everything costs twice as much. with maybe the exception of Minerals. ships cost more. ammo costs more. drones cost more. so on and so forth. i don't see any trends of this going down. that is a problem. do you not at least agree with that much?


Obvious troll is obvious. OP has no idea what he is talking about, but likes to argue. Simple as that.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-02-19 20:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Wes Magyar wrote:
lol your the one going in circles the simple matter of fact is there is inflation. plain and simple you cant deny that. prices have gone up. things cost more isk.
The fact that plexes cost 500 million isk per now proves that. the fact that just about everything costs twice as much. with maybe the exception of Minerals. ships cost more. ammo costs more. drones cost more. so on and so forth. i don't see any trends of this going down. that is a problem. do you not at least agree with that much?


Yes, and inflation was reported as 1% per month or 12% a year according to last CSM minutes reported by CCP. Which when you look at the figures of a change from 300 to 500 over the period of a year it is an increase of 66%. So it really doesn't add up does it as a progressive incremental change? Its nearly 6 times as relevant.

I don't disagree that inlfation is relevant, however I don't simply attribute it to your prefered scapegoat of incursions as the main issue.

Plenty of faucets to consider.

Sinks likley need to be evaluated and adjusted or new ones added likley are on an ongoing basis. (e.g npc tax increase)

People need to look at isk flow or movement as this can equally relate to "price changes" rather than just inflation. E.g. the dramiel has gone down due to changes. Theres also plenty of examples of items that have gone down in price aswell as remained static.

Again neglect to, griefing affecting infrastructure and loss of popularity in industrial professions might be affecting supply.
Also If people from industrial base transition to other activities it increases demand.

Increases in trends for PvP could be increasing demand.

Market manipulation by traders.

All these things can account for price increases without them all accountable due to inflation.

However, inflation will likely trend to price increases overall in the market or with contracted items or other payments and use. I just wouldn't plump for what seems obvious as being the explanation to where the main problem actually exists.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#29 - 2012-02-19 22:41:04 UTC
Good grief!

Can everyone who is claiming that there was "huge inflation" over the last year please open up your market client, select any product you care to mention, and then look at the price graph for the last 12 months. Not 1 month, not 1 week, but 12 months.

Now tell me, does that price rise in December/January look like a gradual increase over 12 months? "No Mara Rinn," you say, "it does not." So what does it look like? It looks very much like a bunch of people coming back to the game because Crucible actually looks nice. Not only do you have the usual expansion-time "oh, new expansion, wonder if it does anything for me" crowd who come back for a month or two, but this time we also have the folks who rage-quit over NeX/WiS coming back because they've seen what CCP is doing and saying and decided to forgive them for being stupid about space barbies.

The gradual inflation over time is easily explained by growing production capacity and general speculation.

Putting a cap on the price of certain goods is called "planned economy". Have a look at all the "planned economies" in the world that have lasted for any significant period of time: USSR is a prime example. They don't thrive, do they? Why? Because planned economies — by trying to enforce stability — encourage unstability in the market. At a fixed price, the market will be exhausted by people buying the thing just because they can afford to. Then the people who actually need it can't get it. In many cases the people who make that thing end up starving because they're not allowed to make enough of that thing (or enough different things) to earn enough income to feed themselves.

If you are having trouble making the ISK to meet your PLEX requirements, consider paying with real money or examine the Making ISK guide in the EVElopedia.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Wes Magyar
Ex Con Inc.
#30 - 2012-02-19 23:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Wes Magyar
Mara Rinn wrote:
Good grief!

Can everyone who is claiming that there was "huge inflation" over the last year please open up your market client, select any product you care to mention, and then look at the price graph for the last 12 months. Not 1 month, not 1 week, but 12 months.

Now tell me, does that price rise in December/January look like a gradual increase over 12 months? "No Mara Rinn," you say, "it does not." So what does it look like? It looks very much like a bunch of people coming back to the game because Crucible actually looks nice. Not only do you have the usual expansion-time "oh, new expansion, wonder if it does anything for me" crowd who come back for a month or two, but this time we also have the folks who rage-quit over NeX/WiS coming back because they've seen what CCP is doing and saying and decided to forgive them for being stupid about space barbies.

The gradual inflation over time is easily explained by growing production capacity and general speculation.

Putting a cap on the price of certain goods is called "planned economy". Have a look at all the "planned economies" in the world that have lasted for any significant period of time: USSR is a prime example. They don't thrive, do they? Why? Because planned economies — by trying to enforce stability — encourage unstability in the market. At a fixed price, the market will be exhausted by people buying the thing just because they can afford to. Then the people who actually need it can't get it. In many cases the people who make that thing end up starving because they're not allowed to make enough of that thing (or enough different things) to earn enough income to feed themselves.

If you are having trouble making the ISK to meet your PLEX requirements, consider paying with real money or examine the Making ISK guide in the EVElopedia.


i was thinking of it more as a gold standard. that way isk has a set value. in Economies that use Gold standards inflation is minimal. but meh i guess we take the wait and see approach since everyone thinks im crazy and or stupid.

And as i said in previous posts im sure if i applied myself and grinded it out over the course of the month i could afford the now Billion isk it would require to keep my two accounts active. But other people who are not nearly up to my capabilities noobs primarily can not generate that kind of isk.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#31 - 2012-02-20 00:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Blastcaps Madullier
Quote:

I wonder if the price of hisec ores is rising due to some unusual influence? Are miners quitting the game? Or are they just not mining?


new mods new ships etc increasing demand for minerals, less mining due to the cruicible changes to destroyers and introduction of tier 3 BCs making suicide ganking easier (before someone quotes the old "it's not profitable to suicide gank...") a lot these days seem more to care about the isk value of the KILLMAIL rather than what they can get drop wise from ganking say a hulk/mack etc one suggestion i made prior to cruicble being released to balance the changes and keep SG about the same balance as pre cruicble was to tinker with the concord timer, NOT to stop suicide ganking but more to keep it about the same kinda point it was pre cruicible, and because it was a change that would ONLY affect highsec and not null/lowsec and meant ccp would have less of a headache (as well as the possibility of things getting royaly s***ewed else where in game) if they boosted the tank on say a hulk they'd then need to tweek npcs through out the game to compensate for it, which then means tinkering with a lot of other things to balance out that change.
just my 2 cents worth
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#32 - 2012-02-20 00:23:59 UTC
Wes Magyar wrote:
i was thinking of it more as a gold standard. that way isk has a set value. in Economies that use Gold standards inflation is minimal.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

The gold standard is basically an economic practice where the economy in circulation is only worth as much as the gold that is stored in vaults. In order to enact a "gold standard" economy, we would have to have exactly as much ISK today as there was yesterday, and as there will be tomorrow. If a new player joins the game, how do they get ISK?

Wes Magyar wrote:
But other people who are not nearly up to my capabilities noobs primarily can not generate that kind of isk.


In a "gold standard" economy it would be much harder for you to be able to afford to PLEX from month to month, since you wouldn't be able to simply blow up lots of NPCs to make ISK appear out of thin air. PLEX would be cheaper, certainly, but your earning potential would be far lower.

When you're thinking of fixing the price of PLEX in concrete, you're talking of a "planned economy". Paying for your subscription using PLEX is a luxury for space-rich pilots.

If you're not already doing Planetary Interaction, get started in that. If you're not already using EVE Central to find nice trade routes, do that. If you're not already doing manufacturing as a means of raising ISK, do that. If you're not already haunting the Free Wrecks channel to find L4 mission runners to salvage for, do that. There are plenty of options for making ISK that don't require you to be grinding NPCs all day.

There is no simple way to make it possible for more people to afford to pay their game time using PLEX, apart from real-life rich people spending more of their dollars to buy in game funds through PLEX. With higher supply, the value will come down. There's a balancing act here between the people selling PLEX for ISK (who won't buy the PLEX to sell if it's not going to be economically attractive) and the people buying PLEX with ISK (who won't buy the PLEX if they can't afford it).

You might find that saving up for a GTC is easier: check out the Timecode Bazaar and compare the GTC prices to PLEX prices (remembering of course that GTC are 60 day, scam-free time codes, PLEX are only 30 days). Note that you'll want to subscribe to the RSS feed if you want to get particularly good deals, since they will be bought very quickly.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
VeryNice
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#33 - 2012-02-20 02:50:34 UTC
50 mill a day times 30 days equals 1.5 billion a month easily done and that cost you 15 dollars .......so prices for plexes are waaaay under the 15$ a month mark quit crying plexes should be minimum a bill each maybe slightly less
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-02-20 06:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Well, a step to help in this would be Remove BOTS that are used to grind ISK... and also NERF Incursions....

Other step would be increase the Industrial and other non Isk generation rellated playstyles on EVE... This would increase the PVP level, reduce prices, and act like a ISK sink....

Furthermore I got to remember that a cloaked ship hunter would be helpfull to allow to get and kill Null-sec rating macro-bots and end the afk cloacker problem that kils most of nullsec industry...Cool...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#35 - 2012-02-20 07:50:15 UTC
I think I must be missing something major here because as far as I can see there is nothing broken and nothing to fix.

CCP sells plex.

Players can buy plex with real money. Those same players can put up their plex for sale at whatever price they want and will sell their plex if there is someone out there that wants it for that price.

Players can buy plex for isk from players who bought plex for real money. They purchase those plex at whatever price they've been put on the market at.

Therefore the entire system works in precisely the same way as everything else in eve. Supply and demand.

If you bought PLEX with real money would you sell it at 300mill isk because that's the price you think it should be or are you going to sell it for as much as you think you can get away with?

So stop whining that it's costing you more to play EvE. Either sub up or make some more isk to buy a plex. As many people have mentioned, there are ways of making that much isk otherwise they wouldn't be selling at those prices.

Free.... Market.... Economy. Supply and demand. Adapt and stop whining.
Agente
Milking Interstellar Incorporated.
#36 - 2012-02-21 18:35:28 UTC
Just to add my two cents, the direct consecuence of controlled prices is scarcity because if the price is below its natural level, suply will not meet demand and the market will deplete of plexes.

Of course there are a couple of solutions for this, already tested in controlled economies:

-Queues
-Rationing

So you will probably not get your PLEX at that price all the same.
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