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Tengu and my DPS
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Janis Ezra
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1 - 2012-02-16 13:48:00 UTC
Hi there,

I just finished (almost) my Tengu skill plan, and I am a little bit disappointed. In the last mission I did, I counted the cicles I need to kill ****. It was Angel Extravaganza (IV), I fly in minmatar space. Heres a short list of how many cicles I needed to kill ship types:

gist war general: 10 / 11 / 10 / 12 / 12
angel viper: 7 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 7 / 6
gist warlord: 12 / 10 / 12 / 12
tribunus: 3 / 3 / 3 / 3
liquidator: 7
nephilim: 12
gist general: 10 / 10 / 11 / 10
spider drone: 14 / 12
tiogo kargaz: 14

My fitting:


[Tengu, 1]
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Trauma Fury Heavy Missile)

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

My skill sheet:

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Janis_Ezra


Are those numbers normal? What skills am I missing? Before I used a CNR (on other account) to fly some L4s, I had the feeling it was way faster with a CNR. With my current tengu setup it took me almost 55minutes to complete Angel Extravaganza. Any ideas?
Lubomir Penev
Prey Drive
#2 - 2012-02-16 14:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lubomir Penev
Janis Ezra wrote:
Hi there,

I just finished (almost) my Tengu skill plan, and I am a little bit disappointed. In the last mission I did, I counted the cicles I need to kill ****. It was Angel Extravaganza (IV), I fly in minmatar space. Heres a short list of how many cicles I needed to kill ship types:

gist war general: 10 / 11 / 10 / 12 / 12
angel viper: 7 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 7 / 6
gist warlord: 12 / 10 / 12 / 12
tribunus: 3 / 3 / 3 / 3
liquidator: 7
nephilim: 12
gist general: 10 / 10 / 11 / 10
spider drone: 14 / 12
tiogo kargaz: 14

My fitting:


[Tengu, 1]
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Trauma Fury Heavy Missile)

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

My skill sheet:

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Janis_Ezra


Are those numbers normal? What skills am I missing? Before I used a CNR (on other account) to fly some L4s, I had the feeling it was way faster with a CNR. With my current tengu setup it took me almost 55minutes to complete Angel Extravaganza. Any ideas?


This looks pretty normal, angel extra require little tank except in the bonus room (successfully ran it in a PvP fit shield auto cane, no bonus room ofc), you really want to strive for max dps in that one. You can use a 4th BCS and then use HAM (2 of your rigs becomes useless), but basically the Tengu got too much tank and not enough gank for L4s. It's pretty good in lowsec (can be made hard to probe, gatecamp evasion ability) but suboptimal in highsec compared to a marauder or a faction BS.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-02-16 14:06:51 UTC
Hi.

If you like killing every rat in your mission, I recommend sticking to your gank fit CNR. Your numbers aren't that bad imo but when it comes to killing everything as fast as possible, a rigor rigged CNR with good drone skills will probably beat a Tengu in most missions. Or may be move to Gurista space.
prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
#4 - 2012-02-16 14:09:02 UTC
You don't need the damage control so that could be swapped for another bcu. Also the shield extender can be removed as your tank is more than enough. That free med slot can be used to fit a web, shield boost amp, cap mod etc...

Training rapid launch 5 and getting some 3% implants to rof and heavy missile damage wouldn't do any harm. You would be doing 729 dps / 2770 volley with trauma fury then, more than enough to clear out battleships quickly.
Mnengli Noiliffe
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-02-16 14:34:31 UTC
use 5% implants for rof, damage, velocity factor and sig radius factor, also use CN missiles for the spider drones and the likes. they only take 2-4 volleys with that equipment.

oh and your skills are not particularly good to expect stellar performance from a tengu. 2m sp in missiles? seriously....
Janis Ezra
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#6 - 2012-02-16 14:38:32 UTC
prolix travail wrote:
You don't need the damage control so that could be swapped for another bcu. Also the shield extender can be removed as your tank is more than enough. That free med slot can be used to fit a web, shield boost amp, cap mod etc...

Training rapid launch 5 and getting some 3% implants to rof and heavy missile damage wouldn't do any harm. You would be doing 729 dps / 2770 volley with trauma fury then, more than enough to clear out battleships quickly.


Implants I use:

Squire PG4
ZML1000
ZMA1000
ZMS1000
ZMM1000

Are those optimal? Sometimes I mess things up between all those rocket/missile types.

You think the tank is too much? Didnt had that feeling, AB + shield booster only runs 2minutes, and there where situations I needed to shield boost for a long time.

Guess I have to rapid launch 5 then... 7days ugh.

ps: about guristas space, Im not in a 0.0 corp, so thats not possible.
Janis Ezra
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#7 - 2012-02-16 14:40:24 UTC
Mnengli Noiliffe wrote:
use 5% implants for rof, damage, velocity factor and sig radius factor, also use CN missiles for the spider drones and the likes. they only take 2-4 volleys with that equipment.

oh and your skills are not particularly good to expect stellar performance from a tengu. 2m sp in missiles? seriously....


Thats why I asked for advice, "seriosuly" doesnt help me at all.
Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
#8 - 2012-02-16 14:45:34 UTC
Trade your medium booster for a small one. Always keep your AB on and kill the small stuff first, once the frigs are dead, move on to the cruisers, then BC's, etc. Tengu's tank is mostly speed against larger ships for PvE.

With your rigor rigs you don't need the TP, standard or faction missles will hit frigs fine, cruisers will take close to max damage, dessies can be one shotted, and everything bigger takes full damage.

also Kinetic is good against Angels, but it is not as good as explosive was from a CNR. Add to the much higher ROF on a Tengu compared to a CNR it seems like you are shooting a lot more, but that is the Tengu's nature.
prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
#9 - 2012-02-16 15:48:12 UTC
This is the fit i use:

[Tengu, Standard]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Y-S8 Hydrocarbon Afterburners
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


With implants:

zmh2000 (5% damage for heavy missiles) <--- this is better than the zml as the tengu has enough range
zma100
zms100
zmm1000

Dps / Volley

trauma 593 / 2072
trauma fury 759 / 2653

This tanks more than enough for any lvl4, is alot cheaper isk wise and easier on cap. If i wanted to pimp with cn bcus' (although the damage increase doesn't seem worth the isk/added gank risk) the damage is as follows:

trauma 631 / 2206
trauma fury 808 / 2824

Hope it helps
Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
#10 - 2012-02-16 16:40:44 UTC
prolix travail wrote:
This is the fit i use:

[Tengu, Standard]


So you drop the cash on the T2 rig for the paper DPS add, don't run Navy BCU's and lack rigor rigs to help kill the smaller stuff that will screw a Tengu.
prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
#11 - 2012-02-16 16:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: prolix travail
Kneebone wrote:
prolix travail wrote:
This is the fit i use:

[Tengu, Standard]


So you drop the cash on the T2 rig for the paper DPS add, don't run Navy BCU's and lack rigor rigs to help kill the smaller stuff that will screw a Tengu.


Indeed.

The 'paper' dps of a T2 bay loader has a positive effect against all npcs, whereas rigors are only effective against frigates and slightly less against cruisers.

I've never had any trouble in any mission, and will quite happily pull full agro. If you are having issues with frigates perhaps your tactics are subpar.


Edit: For the benefit of the below poster and to clarify my point:

Getting more missiles in the air against all npcs > killing frigs and some cruisers (the advanced / t2 equivalent) a couple volleys quicker. The biggest time sink for the tengu is killing bs rats.

Firing your volley damage faster clears damage from bs, bc, and t1 equivalent cruiser in a shorter amount of time compared to fitting rigors which only meaningfully help against 2 types of npc.

Frigate tactics 101: if they aren't on warp in kill them as they approach. This will take 1-3 volleys, and is where increased
rof helps to get more missiles in the air so you can kill more of them in a shorter time.

if they are on the warp in, kill everything else. This is where increased rof helps as you get more missiles
in the air, clearing dps. Gank is a very effective form of tank.
GF07M8
#12 - 2012-02-16 18:11:02 UTC
prolix travail wrote:
If you are having issues with frigates perhaps your tactics are subpar.


Confirming there is a huge variance in the way tengus can deal with frigs. Roll It all comes down to shooting them. Diminished LBA vs. taking frigs are cruisers down a volley or two faster? This is a no-brainer unless you are quite sure bs are far and away the most prolific target. Generally that isn't the case.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#13 - 2012-02-16 18:57:40 UTC
You can use T2 turrets, so hop in a Maelstrom, you will be much more effective than in a Tengu (at least against Angels)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-02-17 03:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Janis Ezra wrote:

gist war general: 10 / 11 / 10 / 12 / 12
angel viper: 7 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 7 / 6
gist warlord: 12 / 10 / 12 / 12
tribunus: 3 / 3 / 3 / 3
liquidator: 7
nephilim: 12
gist general: 10 / 10 / 11 / 10
spider drone: 14 / 12
tiogo kargaz: 14



I think you need to watch on your missile skills side, there's something wrong for me in those numbers because without perfect skills I get something clearly different:

BS - until 1M bounty around 6/8 volley (T2 ammo)

Assault/elite frigates: 1 to 3 volley (T1 ammo is preferred over faction/precision provided you're using 2 T2 rigors and 1 T2 flare)

Cruisers/bs's: 2 to 3 volley T2 ammo (same comment above for rigs)

Throne BS or all bounty over 1M: 8/10 volley T2 ammo

(numbers out of my head but I'm sure some rats I need less volleys)

Quote:

[Tengu, 1]
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Trauma Fury Heavy Missile)

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Not IG atm but just out of my head I'd say subs are ok, mid slots are meh, low slots you can improve them once you get better skills.
About Items quality: you're using a med SB, you should be able to tank no matter the lvl4 including plex until DED6 with a single small SB (did it for a moment with my alt and far from perfect skills) -you could use that energy for something else.

RF AB is a hell of an improvement for this ship since most of it's tank comes out of his speed and sign, aim for it
Then some other stuff I'd change it, but it's more of a personal choice.

Quote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Janis_Ezra


Ok, I understand now a little better. You're missing some important skills, well some 5's.
-First for fittings with Engineering tree: shield skills up to 5 and compensations up to 4 is not an option.
-Electronics: some skills are better up to 5, everything that reduces cpu use or increases the amount available, aim for it, it's not an option at a certain point

Missiles: you're missing most 5's support skills so you're loosing dps, by a lot at the end of the day
-implants or not implants? : think about +5% impact speed +5% dmg -5% ROF - this adds some very nice dps

Subsystems up to 5: it's not an option

Seeing those numbers in the character sheet I'd say your numbers are normal. You're in need of a larger number of 5's in crucial trees to get the best out of that ship. You're just missing some stuff but important stuff, keep your effort.

As for dps, once you get those crucial lvl 5's that you change a little bit your fit and without a lot of pimp you get out of it at least 800dps and +/- 50DPS with another rig setup but slightly more pimp (your med SB will be useful in that case)

C'mon pilot, you are not far from those 5's and you'll need them anyway for no matter the ship you fly after so be patient, keep training.
Be careful to not much pimp your fit, first because you become a nice target as loot piñata.
Then because you'll feel nice in some missions thx to the pimp stuff boost in that particular case, you try to push the machine and find how much it has in the tank and... you'll loose it.

Get in to one ship is "one thing", use it at it's full potential it's "another stuff". A lot of forum warrior nerds should think about before saying you get in an overpowered ship in a few weeks. Now you see by yourself how stupid some can be, Tengu is not overpowered, you need a hell of 5's number to be effective with.

Just an opinion.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#15 - 2012-02-17 03:14:21 UTC
your double tank needs to go....booster(s) or LSE, pick one. Ideally not the lse....tengu speed sig tanks. Well that and lse + angels and thier love of paint equals a fatter target.

Flare II, rigor II, 3 rd rig your choice. No bay loader, bay loader bad. BY the time all the stacking penalties hit its basically crap. Crap that is permanently on your ship you can never get back an isk. CN BCU's are stacked to be fair.....but you can resell them later or take off if you want and put on other ships.

If dedicated pve the goal run the implants mentioned above. rof, damage, velocity and radius is a very effective cocktail I run at 5% for all. With the benefit except for the 5 % damage....rest carries over to other ships. Helped when I gave golem a go. And when I feel the need to af mission run lv 1-3.....it even helps out on frigs as well.
stoicfaux
#16 - 2012-02-17 04:17:28 UTC
Janis Ezra wrote:

gist war general: 10 / 11 / 10 / 12 / 12
angel viper: 7 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 7 / 6
gist warlord: 12 / 10 / 12 / 12
tribunus: 3 / 3 / 3 / 3
liquidator: 7
nephilim: 12
gist general: 10 / 10 / 11 / 10
spider drone: 14 / 12
tiogo kargaz: 14

Assuming max skills, 5% implants, T2 RoF rig, 1x rigor, Kinetic missiels, 4xCN BCUs and not taking NPC repairing into account:

Gist War General : 8.21 volleys -> 9 volleys to kill (VTK) with Fury

Angel Viper: 4 volleys with T1/Faction and various rigs, 4 volleys with percision with 1 Rigor , 5 volleys with 1 rigor, 6-7 volleys with Fury depending on rigs

Gist Warlord: 9.41 volleys -> 10 volleys with Fury

Gistatis Tribunus: 3 volleys with Fury

Arch Gistum Liquidator: 6 volleys with Fury or CN

Gist Nephilim: 9.74 or 10 volleys with Fury

Gist General: 7.46 or 8 volleys with Fury

Spider Drone II: 4.83 or 5 volleys with 2xRigorII + 1xFlareII, 5 volleys for precision with 3x rigors, 6 volleys with T1 ammo, 7 volleys with T1 and 1 Rigor or 2 Flares, 8 volleys with Fury and 2xRigorII + 1xFlare II/RigorI, 10 volleys with Fury with one Rigor or with 2xFlares.

Tiogo (Gist Throne or Malakim) Gist Throne - 10.11 or 11 volleys with Fury


tl;dr You have some room for improvement. Start with a 4th CN BCU.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tidurious
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-02-17 22:16:53 UTC
This might be a little off-topic, but you will finish missions faster (unless you're blitzing them) in a BS rather than a Tengu, and you'll also finish faster with projectiles, rather than missiles.

Just my .02 ISK
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-02-17 22:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cathy Drall
Tidurious wrote:
This might be a little off-topic, but you will finish missions faster (unless you're blitzing them) in a BS rather than a Tengu, and you'll also finish faster with projectiles, rather than missiles.

Just my .02 ISK

Not all missions. 806 kinetic DPS @700m/s and 100+ km missile range is still very decent.

Personally I find a Tengu a lot more fun to do L4 missions than slowboating between groups and accelleration gates in a sluggish megapulse Abbaddon or 800mm AC Mælstrøm.
Msgerbs
The Ronin Wind
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2012-02-18 08:13:14 UTC
Circles?
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-02-18 09:41:20 UTC
Are you turning off your launchers early and picking the next target those times when you're far enough away that you launch the next 1-2 volleys even after the killing one is flying towards the ship? Because that's a pretty big problem with missiles, especially if you're killing smaller targets at long range and you're shooting 4-5 times to kill something with 3 volleys.
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