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It's The Economy Stupid!

Author
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-02-17 18:19:12 UTC
Inflation is rampant right now PLEX prices have risen over the last year, Tritanium is at an all time high and yet mining is still unprofitable.

New Titans are now rolling of the production lines at the rate of 2 per day, it's no longer surprising to see fleets with 100 supercaps.

Devs attempts to fix the bottlenecks due to R64 moon materials were at first inadequate due to an exploit, and later made Technetium an even bigger bottleneck, despite analysis showing this would happen.

Planetary interaction changeover was handled poorly, there are people expecting to make trillions from stockpiles of NPC acquired materials.


Everyone has their own economic bugbears -
Level 4 Missions
Incursions (1/4 of the isk in eve is now coming from these)
Anomalies (apparently lucrative enough that titans are running anoms)
Drone Alloys - Going into supercaps.
RMT - the comedy killmails that RMT generates don't offset the other shenanigans.

And of course take all of the above and add in Bots/Macros/Slaves in a basement.


Almost every candidate has stated positions on changes to Eve which could have long reaching effects on the economy, a popular sentiment right now is changing drones away from dropping piles of compressed minerals into returning actual bounties. You need to look at these kind of things with an eye to the economic impact across the cluster:
* Less minerals but More Isk
* Mineral demand up, more isk available means minerals rise
* Minerals price rise forces the price rise on practically everything, including PLEX
* Raw ISK is devalued - bounties, incursions and other cash rewards become less lucrative.

Much of the discussion of drone drops stems from the legendary supercap factories fueled by wrecks of the drone hordes, but changing drone drops won't stop the game balance problems surrounding blobs of supercaps. This does not invalidate the notion, but the CSM members need to be cool and unbiased when CCP developers ask their opinions. The CSM should also be able to perform convincing analysis of ideas presented to them.

Remember Larkonis Trassler who when presented with upcoming details of a moon goo rebalance went off and bought stockpiles of moongoo based upon this information and subsequently got banned. Not to criticise Lark too much, but this became delicious comedy when he later admitted that he'd bought the wrong stuff and wouldn't have made any money. Meanwhile Akita T told everyone that Technetium would be the bottleneck before the Dominion update was released. Many laughed at the analysis, but in time it has proven right.

With Mitanni and other official candidates for 0.0 alliances guaranteed a large share of the vote the unaffiliated need to rally behind a representative who is guided only by reason, logic, and a deep understanding of Eve. If elected I would be such a candidate, with my years of Eve experience and academic degrees in modelling complex systems I would be well equipped to satisfy these important needs.

I invite the other candidates to step up with their opinions on the economic issues and the problems confronting the players.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-02-17 18:33:07 UTC
~~goonance systems~~
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2012-02-17 18:33:38 UTC
still giggling over guidance systems almost two years later

man oh man that was a good one
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-02-17 18:37:36 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
~~goonance systems~~


never have to pay real money for Eve again crew represent
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-02-17 18:37:55 UTC
Yes I stand to make tens of billions on both those... unless PI gets changed again.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

None ofthe Above
#6 - 2012-02-17 18:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Astute of you to pull out the ramifications of the drone poo change.

Large changes in the system need to approached carefully, and usually implemented in steps.

PI changes showed how not to do things. Adjusting taxes by market rate (which turned out to be a huge difference) and THEN doubling, was a one-two punch that PI users have yet to recover from and shut many down.

If they had done the first and then slowly ramped up the taxes, the market could have absorbed the changes without anywhere near the level of disruption.

While rebalancing of the drone droppings is probably a good thing, a sudden change is going to make drone heavy areas shift from mineral producing sectors to mineral consuming ones. Massive shift.

Smaller changes are probably needed here.

FYI - I do think mining is still marginally profitable. Just pales in comparison to other activities. Minor nit with your miner position.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2012-02-17 18:42:14 UTC
Nullsec mining is inferior to literally any other activity you could do for isk, requires specialized skills, and expensive useless ships.

Literally the only reason people mine in nullsec is because mining bots scale better than ratting bots.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2012-02-17 18:44:19 UTC
thats not true some people are simply morons

but there is nobody who can think who mines in nullsec who doesn't think in binary
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-02-17 18:54:11 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:

FYI - I do think mining is still marginally profitable. Just pales in comparison to other activities. Minor nit with your miner position.


Let me point you at a very basic lesson in economics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

None ofthe Above
#10 - 2012-02-17 19:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Skye Aurorae wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:

FYI - I do think mining is still marginally profitable. Just pales in comparison to other activities. Minor nit with your miner position.


Let me point you at a very basic lesson in economics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost


Ah so I am an idiot for not realizing that profits are illusory if one is not doing the absolutely most profitable thing available to one?

I understand opportunity cost.

But my original statement is correct. Its just another way of expressing the same thing.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-02-17 21:05:46 UTC
EVE's economic system, and the problems that plague it, are a near perfect example of behavior being dictated by "opportunity cost", from permanent NPC corp PvE alts to the dusty corpse that is nullsec mining and industry.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#12 - 2012-02-17 21:52:57 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
thats not true some people are simply morons

That makes a lot of sense!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-02-17 22:35:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
thats not true some people are simply morons

That makes a lot of sense!


I find that a lot of behaviour can be explained through stupidity.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-02-18 18:54:03 UTC
I'm surprised we've only seen one other candidate make a comment on this complex issue. Just like real world politicians who want to promise more money for services and less taxes they choose to skirt around any actual fiscal science.
Of course the CSM doesn't create the budget, but it is party to changes that may have far reaching consequences when they are still in the design stages. I guess it's no surprise that we have PLEX prices shooting up....

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-02-19 02:28:44 UTC
Question for OP and no trolling from me.

What data modeling would you use in the EVE systems as i am interested

You have multiple IVs and DVs which are both parametric and non parametric and you may miss an IV and not see its extranous effects. Ive got knowledge as well which i use in a business related environment.




Second question as an example. effect of the removal of drone poo and the devaluation of Isk in EVE.

You need to know a number of things first off

What % of minerals in supercaps come from Drone poo

Is drone Poo used in any other building

What is the total mineral mineral basket

What is the mineral basket per day

how many supercaps are produced per day.

You need all of this before you can create a formula to assess what impact drone poo removal would be and those are what i can think of at this very moment




I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-02-19 06:06:44 UTC
There's no one place to get all these numbers, previous Dev Comments have given good working estimates on the rate of minerals from mining vs goo reprocessing, other information comes from the QEN, estimates on the drone drop rates can be achieved by using the API to count NPC kills in the relevant regions. But, the most up to date information is issuing forth from CCP Diagoras twitter account. (https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras)

In December there were 2 titans built every day. That's a lot of christmas presents.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#17 - 2012-02-19 06:20:31 UTC
Skye Aurorae wrote:
In December there were 2 titans built every day. That's a lot of christmas presents.

Titans rolling out off the lines like supercapital rifters!

Titan blobs blapping everyone forever.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-02-19 17:17:33 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Skye Aurorae wrote:
In December there were 2 titans built every day. That's a lot of christmas presents.

Titans rolling out off the lines like supercapital rifters!

Titan blobs blapping everyone forever.


I hear that the classic goon doctrine of sacrificing cheap lots of cheap ships to kill expensive ones still holds true in this age of rampant supercap dominance, only, the strategy has evolved from using rifters through drakes and now to dreadnoughts.

'Our dreadnoughts will blot out the sun!'

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-02-19 18:14:12 UTC
Skye Aurorae wrote:
I'm surprised we've only seen one other candidate make a comment on this complex issue. Just like real world politicians who want to promise more money for services and less taxes they choose to skirt around any actual fiscal science.
Of course the CSM doesn't create the budget, but it is party to changes that may have far reaching consequences when they are still in the design stages. I guess it's no surprise that we have PLEX prices shooting up....

chairman for life the mittani has the goonwaffe finance team to explain any financial issue to him so he can bring it to ccp

this does mean he can't get us to analyze something ccp proposes since that'd be under nda but we can explain in excruciatingly boring detail exactly how various things affect and warp the eve economy
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#20 - 2012-02-19 18:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Skye Aurorae wrote:
I hear that the classic goon doctrine of sacrificing cheap lots of cheap ships to kill expensive ones still holds true in this age of rampant supercap dominance, only, the strategy has evolved from using rifters through drakes and now to dreadnoughts.

'Our dreadnoughts will blot out the sun!'

So I hear, and everyone else too. But blue-balling is also a great way to deal with the titans of ~elite pvp~ so heh. As long as you get those french chevaliers to charge up the muddy slope, right?

Love to meatgrind, love to blueball, love to POS shoot/rep. That's EVE Online: A sov warfare game.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

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