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Falloff and hit quality
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2012-02-14 10:47:56 UTC
Hi all,

I was comparing blaster fits on Gallente and Caldari ships, (shield) Brutix vs Ferox. Both fitted in a way so they get more or less equal EHP. Now even if the Ferox has an optimal range bonus...when comparing both fittings with Null ammo in EFT DPS graph the damage curve of the Brutix almost completely covered the damage curve of the Ferox - all without drones btw. There is a slight damage advantage for the Ferox at ~22km. But overall the Brutix seems to make more damage on all distances. Ranges were 7.2+11 km for the Brutix and 11+11 km for the Ferox.

In EFT this is because of the damage advantage the Brutix has (522 vs 358 DPS). Even in falloff it does make more damage - at least on paper. So my question: afaik the EFT DPS graph does not factor in hit quality. How would it work out in-game? Is the optimal bonus of Caldari hulls helpful when using blasters? (with rails I see an use for the range bonus since the Ferox can shoot with faction ammo where the Brutix has to use Spike with worse tracking).
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-02-14 10:56:06 UTC
EFT factors hit quality into DPS. You're just seeing a ship with a damage bonus out-damaging one without.
Liam Mirren
#3 - 2012-02-14 11:08:31 UTC
The Brutix is a weird ship, it does not do any meaningful dps in it's native armour tanking fit but if you forget about it's armour bonus and shield fit it the dps gets silly. Other thing is that null ammo is helped more by a falloff bonus so while the ferox range bonus CAN be useful with blasters it generally isn't.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Denuo Secus
#4 - 2012-02-14 11:36:13 UTC
Imho the Ferox is the weird one here. I accept the Brutix does less damage on less range when armor tanked. In return armor tanking offers other benefits like free med slots for web or cap booster + smaller sig.

Also it's obvious the Brutix does more damage on short range when shield tanked. What surprised me was, it does more damage on almost all ranges! With Void ammo there is a bigger difference in falloff (in favor of the Ferox) but I really expected the optimal range bonus would be more noticeable.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-02-14 11:38:51 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Imho the Ferox is the weird one here. I accept the Brutix does less damage on less range when armor tanked. In return armor tanking offers other benefits like free med slots for web or cap booster + smaller sig.

Also it's obvious the Brutix does more damage on short range when shield tanked. What surprised me was, it does more damage on almost all ranges! With Void ammo there is a bigger difference in falloff (in favor of the Ferox) but I really expected the optimal range bonus would be more noticeable.


Bear in mind you're looking at the Brutix's 7 turrets vs. 6 on the Ferox as well. It's not an apples to apples comparison because of that.
Denuo Secus
#6 - 2012-02-14 12:58:40 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Bear in mind you're looking at the Brutix's 7 turrets vs. 6 on the Ferox as well. It's not an apples to apples comparison because of that.


LOL silly me. While staring on diagrams I missed this clear and simple fact Big smile

Thanks for this insight. My faith in Caldari hybrid ships is restored a bit. Now the Ferox only needs another turret slot. I hope the announced tier1 BC boost will address this.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#7 - 2012-02-14 16:33:20 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Bear in mind you're looking at the Brutix's 7 turrets vs. 6 on the Ferox as well. It's not an apples to apples comparison because of that.


LOL silly me. While staring on diagrams I missed this clear and simple fact Big smile

Thanks for this insight. My faith in Caldari hybrid ships is restored a bit. Now the Ferox only needs another turret slot. I hope the announced tier1 BC boost will address this.


You joke but... could be a likely improvement on that hull.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Liam Mirren
#8 - 2012-02-14 17:17:59 UTC
Simply adding a turret slot would not be the way imo, then you effectively get a Rokh; no utility high making it fairly useless.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#9 - 2012-02-17 05:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Recommendation? Caldari gunboats fitted with blasters are pretty funny. Almost as funny as Gallente boats with close range bonuses and overall attributes that favor close range that are fitted with rails. Try using them as they were intended to be used - long range turret platforms. I'm not one bit surprised that the ship that was meant to be used with blasters is better with blasters than the ship that was meant to be used with rails.

**EDIT** Sure, Ferox can work with blasters just like a Brutix can work with rails. It's a valid tactic, and it's good improvisation, and can help you get past opponents that require a change in engagement range compared to the range your ship is designed to use. It'll work in a pinch, but it's not where the ship really shines.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
GF07M8
#10 - 2012-02-17 05:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: GF07M8
Mechael wrote:
Recommendation? Caldari gunboats fitted with blasters are pretty funny. Almost as funny as Gallente boats with close range bonuses and overall attributes that favor close range that are fitted with rails. Try using them as they were intended to be used - long range turret platforms. I'm not one bit surprised that the ship that was meant to be used with blasters is better with blasters than the ship that was meant to be used with rails.

**EDIT** Sure, Ferox can work with blasters just like a Brutix can work with rails. It's a valid tactic, and it's good improvisation, and can help you get past opponents that require a change in engagement range compared to the range your ship is designed to use. It'll work in a pinch, but it's not where the ship really shines.


The ferox is much worse with rails. Med rails are absolute shite.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#11 - 2012-02-17 06:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
It's the only battlecruiser with a range bonus. This gives it an edge over every other battlecruiser when sniping. Used properly as support for a fleet of, for example, eagle/moa and basis, it's a great little boat for setting up medium-sized sniper platforms. Cost effective ones if your fleet stays tier 1. Granted, it's still a first tier battlecruiser and is in need of much love from CCP ... but it's still the only battlecruiser that can do that.

**EDIT** Of course, now the Naga can do it, too, and with large turrets. However, it's also much more fragile and does not have access to gang links.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#12 - 2012-02-17 09:06:35 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
I hope the announced tier1 BC boost will address this.


announced where?
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#13 - 2012-02-17 09:37:35 UTC
It was announced from my bum, just seconds ago


/parp

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Denuo Secus
#14 - 2012-02-17 16:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
To mare wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
I hope the announced tier1 BC boost will address this.


announced where?


Check this post from CCP Ytterbium: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667979#post667979 (post #129).

Edit: and the CSM meeting minutes ofc: http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf. See section 'Game balance' on page 21 for instance.
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-02-17 17:24:44 UTC
I think most of the times you see blasters on a Caldari hull you'd see them regardless of if the range bonus were there- For large guns, it can help a bit in that you don't have to get *quite* so close but you aren't really gaining THAT much and it's generally that blasters are used by someone who wants to fly that hull, not that the hull is used by someone who wants to use blasters. For a giggle, compare your graph of the blaster ferox with ones mounting equivalent ACs and (if you can get them to fit) lasers.

About the only Caldari ship that really makes a strong case for itself against other blaster platforms is the Naga, because it *has* more than just the range bonus to contribute to the guns, and isn't a complete slug.

(though, I don't see what's up with the notion with the idea that there's something wrong with the Rokh because it lacks utility high slots. Nobody's FORCING you to mount all 8 slots with turrets, you just probably want to because you don't have a damage bonus from the hull and don't have a lot of room for damage mods. Would restricting the Rokh to 6 guns somehow make it *better*? Would letting a Megathron mount 8 guns somehow make it *worse*?)
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#16 - 2012-02-17 21:13:52 UTC
OP I ran into this same dilemma awhile back when looking for a new PVP ship. With the fits I was looking at, the Ferox had about 5k EHP over the Brutix, as well as a web. However, it was slower, about 15% less damage, less maneuverable and only had half the drone bay. I decided on the Brutix (Double LSE, DCU, 2x Extenders and an EM rig for a tank). That fabulous Gallente hull let me kill a drake in a 1v7 brawl, after catching it in the first place. Looking back, I probably would have gone LSE+Invuln and 3x extender rigs, as that would have let me fit bigger guns. The ferox fit was pretty tight, and it only had Electrons or ions I think.

The other thing worth considering is the drone bay issue. I decided to take a flight of Warrior II's and a flight of EC-300s in my Brutix. Without both of those to use, I would have died without killing the drake. Don't get blinded by the DPS from hammerheads, as there's nothing more embarassing than dying to the first competent AB frigate you run across.