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Bounty hunting - let's get this sorted

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Eperor
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#41 - 2012-01-10 10:52:05 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
I don't like the idea of limiting bounties to kills, because there are more reasons for bounties than violence. Corp thieves, scammers, et cetera could all draw substantial bounties without firing a shot.

Also, I'd love to see it used in times of war where an alliance could designate priority targets via internal bounty contracts, enabling them to put prices on the heads of certain enemies.



Prpbably solution is crerate a online report system for tiefs. So to say CEO or corp Director reports thieves and puts bounty on his head.
Any way Corp CEOs reporting them. So way not keep online data base of thos chars, and work with thos contracts wat was proposaled befor.

This not include scamers.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#42 - 2012-01-10 11:42:48 UTC
Eperor wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
I don't like the idea of limiting bounties to kills, because there are more reasons for bounties than violence. Corp thieves, scammers, et cetera could all draw substantial bounties without firing a shot.

Also, I'd love to see it used in times of war where an alliance could designate priority targets via internal bounty contracts, enabling them to put prices on the heads of certain enemies.



Prpbably solution is crerate a online report system for tiefs. So to say CEO or corp Director reports thieves and puts bounty on his head.
Any way Corp CEOs reporting them. So way not keep online data base of thos chars, and work with thos contracts wat was proposaled befor.

This not include scamers.



Eperor is a thief.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Atticus Fynch
#43 - 2012-01-12 08:09:08 UTC
/signed

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#44 - 2012-01-12 15:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
i like the idea of the contract system, however not necessarily as replacement for the current bounty mechanics.

as you pointed out current mechanics work like in the old wild west where death was obviously meaningfull, in eve it is not (why should you get the full bounty payout for killing someone in an empty clone? The bad guy does not care at all - he lost nothing). I would rather like to fix this first, make the bounty system eve-like. Contracts could be added on top of that - would be a really nice addition.

see my signature for a fixed, eve-like bounty system

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#45 - 2012-01-12 15:43:26 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
i like the idea of the contract system, however not necessarily as replacement for the current bounty mechanics.

as you pointed out current mechanics work like in the old wild west where death was obviously meaningfull, in eve it is not (why should you get the full bounty payout for killing someone in an empty clone? The bad guy does not care at all - he lost nothing). I would rather like to fix this first, make the bounty system eve-like. Contracts could be added on top of that - would be a really nice addition.

see my signature for a fixed, eve-like bounty system


Your idea for the bounty payout is essentially the same as mine, but it's open to the following simple exploit:

You put a 500M bounty on me
I buy 12 drakes and platinum-insure them
I kill me in those (unfitted) drakes with my alt or corpy, who consequently receives 60% of the value of each drake as reward
I receive the full insurance value of each drake
I make a moderate profit and remove the 500M bounty on my head in about 15 minutes.
You have completely wasted your money, given me a small profit, and done no more than briefly inconvience me.
(My killboard looks like ass now, but whatever.)

Being able to specify who can collect a bounty is absolutely essential to stop friends/alts of the criminal essentially negating the bounty in this way. Additionally, contracting a killright means that I can't "hide" in hi-sec and benefit from CONCORD protection.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-01-12 16:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Malcanis wrote:
Being able to specify who can collect a bounty is absolutely essential to stop friends/alts of the criminal essentially negating the bounty in this way. Additionally, contracting a killright means that I can't "hide" in hi-sec and benefit from CONCORD protection.

Alternatively, you cap the payout for a kill at 60% of the ship's nominal price less the platinum insurance value and leave it at that.

Since when did 'wanted dead or alive' posters specify that only certain people were allowed to collect?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#47 - 2012-01-12 16:51:38 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Being able to specify who can collect a bounty is absolutely essential to stop friends/alts of the criminal essentially negating the bounty in this way. Additionally, contracting a killright means that I can't "hide" in hi-sec and benefit from CONCORD protection.

Alternatively, you cap the payout for a kill at 60% of the ship's nominal price less the platinum insurance value and leave it at that.

Since when did 'wanted dead or alive' posters specify that only certain people were allowed to collect?


I'm reminded of the opening scenes of "The Good, The Bad And the Ugly" where Clint Eastwood and Eli Wallach are running a bounty scam...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2012-01-12 17:40:15 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:

Alternatively, you cap the payout for a kill at 60% of the ship's nominal price less the platinum insurance value and leave it at that.


This is actually a negative number for T1 ships.

This is the problem: if you make the bounty high enough to be worth collected, then it's worth collecting with an alt. For bounties to have any meaning, you have to close the alt/friend loophole and restrict who can receive them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#49 - 2012-01-12 18:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Malcanis wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
i like the idea of the contract system, however not necessarily as replacement for the current bounty mechanics.

as you pointed out current mechanics work like in the old wild west where death was obviously meaningfull, in eve it is not (why should you get the full bounty payout for killing someone in an empty clone? The bad guy does not care at all - he lost nothing). I would rather like to fix this first, make the bounty system eve-like. Contracts could be added on top of that - would be a really nice addition.

see my signature for a fixed, eve-like bounty system


Your idea for the bounty payout is essentially the same as mine, but it's open to the following simple exploit:

(insurance exploit)


this is already covered in the details section ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105#post359105 ). The proposal covers only the basic idea, there are corner cases which can be fixed using different approaches. I think its good enough for us to discuss those things and come to the conclusion "it will almost certainly work - there are no obvious show stoppers", the details are left to the game designers if they finally decide to fix bounties.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#50 - 2012-01-12 18:44:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

This is the problem: if you make the bounty high enough to be worth collected, then it's worth collecting with an alt. For bounties to have any meaning, you have to close the alt/friend loophole and restrict who can receive them.

no restrictions are needed.

the single mandatory requirement is:
damage done - insurance > payout

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2012-01-12 19:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Bienator II wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

This is the problem: if you make the bounty high enough to be worth collected, then it's worth collecting with an alt. For bounties to have any meaning, you have to close the alt/friend loophole and restrict who can receive them.

no restrictions are needed.

the single mandatory requirement is:
damage done - insurance > payout


But that's simply incorrect. If I can "scrape off" a 500M bounty for the cost of only a few mill to myself, then why wouldn't I? That would be like sacrificing a Sabre to hero-tackle a Tech 3 cruiser, which any PvPer would do in a heartbeat.

I can cheaply and easily free myself from any real risk and I have the satisfaction of wasting a large sum of your money. Who would be stupid enough to bother putting a bounty on me on those terms?

Only those ignorant of how the bounty system works - just like now.


EDIT: I am strongly opposed to having bounty payments deducted from insurance. bounty payments should be a purely player transaction.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#52 - 2012-01-13 00:22:32 UTC
well, again. you cant exploit it this way.

to exploit it you will use empty, platinum insured T1 ships. Since the insurance is subtracted from the payout you won't be able to reduce your bounty significantly. You will loose lots of money to get rid of the bounty. (if you do it its fine actually, it still hurts the bad guy at the end of the day... )

if you don't exploit (normal case), insurance subtraction does not matter at all since your ship fitting is in the calculation. It is so insignificant that it doesn't matter. And as soon you go expensive (those are the interesting scenarious for bounty hunters), platinium payouts decrease even more (faction ships, t2, t3).

Someone added samples to the discussion. Take a look at those.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#53 - 2012-01-23 14:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
The idea of bounties like contracts gets a vote from me.

E.g. i want to put 500million bounty on someone, it becomes like a contract which i can assign to an individual or corporation (likely a person or group well equiped and experienced enough to pull it off). They manage to pod kill said individual, they get the payout.

Certainly beats a broad-spectrum bounty that anyone can claim. Definately considering that getting killed is pretty much guarenteed in the long run. This way, you'd have the satisfaction of knowing that your bounty has lead to the direct destruction and death of the person in question. I've got a whole list of people i'd have put a bounty on, if the system wasn't broken like it is currently.

Would also allow the bounty system to finally become an acceptable profession, with corps and individuals that demonstrate a continued ability in completing the bounties asigned to them getting more contracts from people looking for payback.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#54 - 2012-01-23 14:50:52 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
I've got a whole list of people i'd have put a bounty on, if the system wasn't broken like it is currently.


I suspect I'm on quite a few of those lists. If this proposal were to be accepted I'd be motivated to fix my sec pretty quickly Blink

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#55 - 2012-02-07 18:33:57 UTC
I find it laughable, and rather insulting, that ccp continue to market the idea of the "bounty hunter" when everyone in the game knows that the system is completely broken. I liked the new website, apart from that aspect. Bounty hunting is probably the "coolist" profession, and certainly one that got me looking into eve so many years ago, and the fact they are still pushing that as an actual, feasible profession is borderline lying imo.

I'd say that perhaps the new website might actually lead to a fix to the bounty system, but the fact we've all been waiting for years makes this highly unlikely.

PLEASE SOMEONE FIX THE BOUNTY SYSTEM ! Twisted

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Lavayar
Haidamaky
UA Fleets
#56 - 2012-02-16 09:48:28 UTC
Supported

Something must be done with bounty hunting. OP idea is not bad at all.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-02-17 01:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Suggestion to embelsih the current proposal is to extend the existing contract system we have to accomodate Bounty hunter contacts. As a result you could use a combination of private and public mediums even alliance contracts to afford a sensible selection. In this sense using the contracts mechanics for BH. The I guess when used with a forum for services or otherwise for people who have established reputations. Seems to give flexibility to contracts rather than restirciting to corps, alliances or public as a selection. The most important part is being able to optionally avoid the person who a kill right is about of an affiliate simply lifting the contract for personal motivations.

Also from a previous discussion regarding Transferable kill rights, Tippia had some interesting ideas also:

Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Well the only problem area I could envisage is that if not carefull you could contract or transfer a kill right to someone who is in league with or the very person the kill right is involved with.
I suppose, but doesn't that kind of depend what kind of contract you offer?

I mean, if it's the "sell" kind, the target has to pay to make himself safe, and the alternative is that a third party picks it up just to get a legal target to attack. (By "sell kind", I mean a standard sell contract: I put up kill rights to individual X for sale; someone with an interest in going after him buys it from me). That seems like a fair deal -- if my intended target is willing to buy his peace (and I'm more interested in getting money than seeing him dead, since I made a sell contract) then that's fine and dandy, after all.

It's more the "buy" kind that is an issue, since I am (presumably) offering cash rewards for the death of the target. This leads to the same issue as with the current bounty system. Hell, it's even a worse issue, since whomever picks up the contract gets the money and don't even have to exercise the kill right to do so, so the target doesn't even have to suffer the loss of a clone to get the money the way they do now. So these contracts would need some additional accept/reject mechanics that the current contract system doesn't support.

The two contracts would also have rather different audiences: the buy contracts would attract the classic bounty hunter -- someone who gets paid to kill -- whereas the sell contracts are for the big-game hunter who's willing to shell out a buck or two to get the chance to earn some trophies (kill mails). The question is to which extent these two markets really exist and what kind of volume they'd see.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Kimbeau Surveryor
Stapeley House
#58 - 2012-02-17 02:55:13 UTC
I had suggested that when you place a bounty you can specify which Alliances are allowed to collect, but I like the idea of tying it to the standings system better.

You do have to think out how to calculate payouts when multiple bounties are placed with differing rules, and you have a kill mail with players with different relationships to those rules, but an evening with a towel round our heads should be able to work out the right algorithm.

Supported.
K1RTH G3RS3N
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-02-17 05:41:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Actually, I just thought of something. What's to stop someone from essentially griefing someone by repeatedly putting up a bounty? A gentleman's agreement?


The bounty contract requires a killright.


people dont get killrights when killed by wartargets.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#60 - 2012-02-17 08:27:07 UTC
K1RTH G3RS3N wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Actually, I just thought of something. What's to stop someone from essentially griefing someone by repeatedly putting up a bounty? A gentleman's agreement?


The bounty contract requires a killright.


people dont get killrights when killed by wartargets.


People already have killrights on wartargets by definition. As mentioned earlier, in theory this could allow warring corps to place bounties on wartargets. Depending on how far we wanted to take this, that would give us two possibilities

(1) We could limit collection of those bounties to the issuing corp. Basically they would simply be a method for a corp member to incentivise and reward the members of his corp to prosecute the war

(2) As a further possibility, we could consider allowing "Letters Of Marque", where corps could offer open bounty contracts on wartargets. I like this concept because it would introduce a badly needed element of risk into declaring war, but I am also cautious of the possibility of abuse

Note that bounty contracts on war targets would expire when the war does.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016